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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 03-16-2010, 06:52 PM   #151
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Default Replicating When Completed

The two B-47's will be finished when construction ends. Construction begins along the way to an assembly point where all
are completed.

Cost to replicate our B-47 would probably be 75% less than it costs Sam and I to build each one. If you have been reading this thread
from its beginning you have seen accommodating redesign steps (aka start overs). Each redesign is focused on ONE THING...reducing
overall size of airframe and its resulting AUW. Target AUW is 34# to 39# @ 137" (original w/s) which in the end is 158.777".

This entire project began and continues to evolve from the inboard nacelle containing power to fly. Batteries, ESC, fan, motor, bifurcated
inlet/exhaust, outrigger retract, Eagle Tree DataLogger, landing light and more are enclosed in managed space.

If these items can't fit with power to lift an AUW at X square inches, you start over.



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Old 03-17-2010, 12:31 AM   #152
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Default Flap Jacks Please..............

Back at the bottom of page one of this thread........150 posts ago, we introduced Sam Collins, my
partner in crime. Sam has been at the skunk works, fartzan the time away, phlegmatically speaking.
To be more accurate, but less entertaining, I bring you to the point in this project where we cross
over into reality from virtual space.

There....was it good for you? OK, moving right along.................

Below are the real deals and their framework viewed from as many angles as possible.


Note the hangars below and the screwjack extensions. Our mechanism will be visible so why not have it look like the real deal...



Red outline of the inboard and outboard flap sections with attached rear of inboard engine nacelle.




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Old 03-17-2010, 04:17 AM   #153
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Default New B-47 Language

Hi Ed!

Very nice images in your most recent post, but ... what the heck does "philagistically" mean??? (Must be some new jargon from you B-47 experts.)

Cheers,

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Old 03-17-2010, 07:16 AM   #154
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Default

Hey Ed,

Here is a link that i'm sure you will enjoy and may get useful tips from to be used on ur model.....

http://rbogash.com/B47.html



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Old 03-17-2010, 05:39 PM   #155
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Default Sam Collins' WB

Originally Posted by Oleo1 View Post
Hey Ed, Here is a link that i'm sure you will enjoy and may get useful tips from to
be used on ur model..... http://rbogash.com/B47.html Sam
Sammy,
I am not building a WB, however Sam Collins is. That B-47 is the MOF
WB-47E conversion. At this point Sam and I have over 10 gig of images and computer docs plus the
700+ pages of B-47 pilot and maintenance manuals, 300+ pages of scanned pilot and crew manuals
bought online and received on DVD and four or five B-47 focus publications.

Sifting through this since Oct has been an educational exercise in mis-information and contradiction.
I have shared a fair amount of this over the first 7 screens of this thread. After I purchased the '56
M.A.N. drawing and received the BAC drawing I was satisfied I had as accurate a set of drawings
that could be had.

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Old 03-17-2010, 09:18 PM   #156
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Default Dynamic Solutions At Hand

Before we move on to our flaps...you need to catch up on power a wee bit. This is Tommy Cook's
Dynamax coupled to a motor specifically designed for the fan.

Yes, a purpose designed motor with designed-in horsepower Tommy's Dynamax benefits the most from.
An excellent combination that provides excellent thermal exchange to the air stream...to keep it cool
& effecient.

Note the CNC machining of the face and rear are angled for smoother flow in and out of the motor
minimizing eddy-flow naturally occuring when using flat face machining.


Like most others, they are Chinese manufactured motors.





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Old 03-18-2010, 03:50 AM   #157
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Default B-47 Wrapper...Unwrapped

Today during an extended search for additional flap images for cosmetics, I had just said to myself...self
you've exhausted all the online flap resources...then bang!






This appeared on my radar....a .pdf card stock model of a 1/48th B-47E-IV. You may scoff...folks this is
an absolutely wonderful verification tool...or as in the case of Philippe building his Depron B-47E...here's
your skin my friend...

Not only is it the skin, its anyone's B-47 pattern for building whatever size B-47 you desire because its
a scaleable .pdf image Yo my friends this is a key to your B-47 project, all for $10 using PayPal.com.

Chris Gutzmer was nice enough to permit me to post a partial of the nose so everyone reading thread
could witness the resouces he has for all of us over on his web site... http://ecardmodels.com

Geometry 101 began when you played with blocks at age whatever. Guess what, you're not through with
geometry...you just graduated to polygons...aka groups of triangles...

Yes friends, its got a "scale" cockpit with pilot and co-pilot instrument panels.... :^)



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Old 03-18-2010, 01:14 PM   #158
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Default

FLITE-METAL - I'm using a similar technique on the large B-29 I'm working up right now. Some of these more detailed card models really lent themselves to scaled up RC models. You just need to know what to rework and what the beef up.

I donít go in for ancient wisdom. I donít think that just because ideas are tenacious it means that theyíre worthy. - Tim Minchin
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Old 03-18-2010, 03:19 PM   #159
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Default CAn-O-Pea

Wilmracer,

Our B-47 is not going to use any of this for structure or exterior skin, I am using it as a "tool" during various steps of our project. A
good example is in the canopy where we are using a "pair" of canopies on each B-47 from a giant scale Great Planes RV4
(WGPMA1271 at Tower).

A 10.2% B-47 requires 2 GP RV4 canopies, one for the frame and the other for glass.


Portion of the RV4 canopy being used is easily seen with this overlay of a B-47 canopy. We need to "extract" everything aft of the B-47 windshield to its rear. Our cut line is the parting line between windshield an canopy.


Here you can see the cockpit tub with the canopy in an oblique projection to help you envision how the card stock unwrap use is superior to other ways of cutting away excess canopy.


Now you should be able to appreciate how much less work this will be with the unwrapped canopy contained in the card stock B-47.


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Old 03-18-2010, 10:37 PM   #160
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Your attention to detail is impeccable. This is going to end up one hell of a plane.

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Old 03-18-2010, 11:19 PM   #161
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Default Credit Goes To Universal Mentoring, Pass It Along...

TD,

Thanks...I can't take all the credit. I am simply riding on the tip of the spear or stradle the razor...take
your pick ;^) I am showing how easy it is to scratch build, given resources are available to support the
decision to build. Making that decision is easy too...power to weight ratio against the projected AUW.

How do you project estimated AUW? Look for another airframe of comparable size & mechanical lay out...
there is no other way I know to estimate AUW.

List everything you need in the plane with the weight of each...total it and you work your way down to
a comparable airframe which flew well. Bingo, it flies.

I enjoy the search for documentation as much as the design work.

Here is an example of just how easy it is to scratch build with just a few resources. .pdf file is downloadable
from this web site video. It will permit anyone to build a scale EDF Concorde at what ever AUW you so desire.
Click and build, it doesn't get easier: )



http://mikeysrc.com/mrc_concorde.pdf (downloadable Concorde foam board model) What more could you
want? Go to your local art supply and get commercial foam core board, a magic marker and have at it

Now, to fill it all in and out...

For $98.00 USD you get a complete 3D CAD of everything on and in the Concorde.


Here's one for $10.00.






Downloadable from: http://www.3dcadbrowser.com

You can see where this is headed real fast can't you.............. Air Canada for Sammy.

Free download from here:
http://www.currell.net/models/files_concorde144.htm
Well, you get my point...


Right down to the struts...Its not a matter of money anymore guys.....build it and they will come



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Old 03-19-2010, 03:29 PM   #162
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Default Not Theory Of Relativity....Facts, Only The Facts


Lets wrap up what I unwrapped as a scale modeling resource earlier...

(1). Cut a cylinder from XPS extruded foam (blue or pink).

(2). Draw datum lines onto surface corresponding to multiple view datum lines.
In the case of the Concorde either line art or use the card stock model to
arrive at extended intersect relationship of multiple datum lines present.

Cylinder is a hotwired fuselage section of Sammy's Concorde. As had been shown in previous posts in
this thread, multiple sections comprise the entire fuselage length. I drew red datum lines representing
only two of the multiple datum line elements of each Concorde component.


Remember, you always begin a scratch building project with datum lines drawn on final multiple view
drawing selected as your guide tool for design and construction.

You said to yourself...Yes, I know that because you showed it earlier in the thread. Will you please
show where the cross sections came from which permit cutting the XPS cylinder to the proper scale
shape?


Note the single datum indicator on the card stock former. You MUST add additional datum lines!!!
1 vertical and multiple horizontal to align other elements of the construction...This is where your
minds eye is brought back on course with respect to one of the many ways you can successfully
build a project.

XPS hotwired cylinder, aka fuselage section(s) use enhanced formers from card model as a shape
validator. Each has a specific location and each has a datum mark and a number corresponding to
either a builders guide, or multiple view construction drawing within the instructions.



Is this beginning to look and read more clearly? Gee, I wonder if that is the airfoil (blue) along side
of fuselage? I wonder if it corresponds to proper incidence. Does it correspond to the scaled views of
the line art multiple view drawing you are using as a construction auditor?

Reflect on other content within this thread to get caught up on these processes. These to include an
internal diamond and its triangle shaped internal structures, including two wing trusses.

More power to ya...



Was this helpful? Really...was it?



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Old 03-19-2010, 04:48 PM   #163
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Default Flip'n 'd Flaps

The next posts feature Sam's prototype flap mechanism. It will feature detailed photos of the drop in
module. Built as a seperate unit for best alignment and unitized strength without accumulative weight
negative consequences.

Sam focused on consistant operation with minimum friction and maximum simplicity within the brass,
carbon fiber rod, light ply, and fiber glass module. Sam's design permits quick and easy removal from
each wing so we don't have to lay on our backs trying to adjust or repair.

Use of a single drive for both inboard flap sections simplifies mechanical adjustment. The outboard
flaps are flaperons and will be programmed for differential aileron in addition to function as flaps.


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Old 03-21-2010, 04:16 PM   #164
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Default Tilt Or Not A Tilt???

While Sam's beating out the flap module I've been searching for validation of an assumption. Yes, amidst
all the documentation I have not be able to validate an assumption forced on me. Below is the image of
a most critical element of the B-47 flap mechanism and replicating it.


In the above image there is a portion of the inboard engine nacelle pylon positioned above the flap at
the rear of the pylon. Since October...yes that long...every multiple view line art drawing has bothered
me as I compared the image to the required mechanical movement.

The flap illustrated in this image moves down and slightly back as it is deployed. I could not determne
in photos if the tail of the nacelle pylon was attached to the flap or tilted down out of the way of the
flap as it moved away. Several photos hinted this was the case.



The flap will move back almost a full five inches to the rear... That places the flap leading edge almost all
the way back to where its trailing edge was before it was moved back... This is supported by many, many
images gathered in our documentation... ;^) So, what's the issue?

If that portion of the nacelle pylon were part of the flap, it would be out in the jet stream at right angles
to the flap, attached to it...out there all by its lonesome. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Yea, that's what's been the itch I could not scratch....one of GREAT consequence as well.

While Sam got closer and closer to engineering the flaps, I...not having scratched the itch revisited our
hard copy documentation and all of the digital images acquired. (You are about to witness why gathering
documentation is so important).

I previously assumed the photographic images validated a parting line on the inboard nacelle pylon as being
"part of the flap". This really, really bothered me when I thought in terms of 600 plus mph. Drag it is & drag
was "THE" issue with this aircraft from day one until after they landed the 1:1 the first time.

Here's what bugged me. If everything aft of the parting line was attached to the flap...as the flap moved
back...yes I said it before... everything back of the parting line would be parallel to the nacelle pylon, out
there all by its lonesome.

I have a "small image" shot in flight from the side at what appears to be over 300 feet from the B-47 showing
a flap down and what for all it looks
like...a tilted rear end of the inboard nacelle pylon. The sunlight is bright
enough to illuminate the area...however, because I need to see what I
think I see...
Is what I see what I think I see?



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Old 03-21-2010, 09:58 PM   #165
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Default Definitive No-Tilt-A-Whirl :^)

Buried deep down within my photo docs I found a definitive answer to whether or not it tilted away....No everything beyond the parting
line is screwed to the flap.


As seen in the above photo it actually spans the flap parting line at its forward most point. Details, its always in the details....OCD
to the MAX... Next...Sam's flap mechanism.



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Old 03-23-2010, 05:27 PM   #166
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Default Back On The Flap Track...Literally

And you thought we'd never get back on the flap...track. :^) Be sure to refresh you screen often from here on...
REMEMBER THIS IS A FLAP WORK-UP AND NOT OUR FINAL FLAP DESIGN


Sam Collins describing his flap mechanism:

B-47E 10.2% Scale Stratojet Flap Construction

The toughest part of this project (after all the research) was developing a mechanism which could move a surface 5 inches back within
a thin airfoil and tilt the surface to a realistic angle (22 Deg) without any external parts.

Variable 22 degrees of flap angle plus a wing incidence of 5.5 degrees combines for a realistic 27.5 degree flap deployment. Flap system
is extremely smooth with virtually "0" drag through 100% travel. There are improvements to be made in Rev 2, but for now
here's my
construction sequence.



This photograph shows most of the pieces and parts needed in constructing the flap mechanism. The 4.0 X 17.0 inch base plate; 4.0
inch brass support tubing; 9.0 inch carbon fiber support rods with 4-40 SS threaded ends and ball links; 1/8 inch ply flap airfoil end
caps, flap pink foam body; brass channel; 0.113 in diameter brass rods for hinges, rotational pins, and base plate end pieces with the
placement marked for mounting the base and routing the channel for the rotational pins.



Construction of base plate with brass support tubing and carbon fiber support rods. I epoxied three brass tubes centered and on each
end of the flap base plate. During the actual assembly a layer of carbon fiber vail is placed across brass tubes as they are epoxied in
position. For the most part, all of the images are shown as if viewed from below the wing and flap.


Carbon fiber rod inserted into each brass tube guide is a perfect slip fit with virtually "0" slop. Brass tube functions as cantilever for
carbon fiber rods from which entire flap assembly is suspended behind
B-47 wing when fully deployed.


Above is a 1:1 view from the front of the wing showing suspension points and their hangers along leading edge of the B-47 flap.


Above is the base plate; base end caps with position marking; and wood flap end caps. Left and right wood end cap will be laminated
with carbon fiber on both sides to assure end cap strength and shape
does not change under load.


Above are the flap base end caps with markings and brass channel before "routing". The flap mechanism is fit as a replacement for all
the foam cut from the B-47's foam wing and integrated into the rear wing
spar.




Above, initial flap construction shows end caps in place with rotational pins. The mark on surface of foam slab used to represent flap
surface is part of foam manufacturer's surface marks not from any
cut-out. This 17 inch wide flap work space is a proof of concept
test bed for a virtually friction free
mechanism.

Time to refresh your computer screen.



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Old 03-24-2010, 01:54 AM   #167
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Default Another Helping Of Flaps...Jack


Above is a 1/8 inch slot routed in the inboard and outboard ply face glued to the balsa liner of the inboard flap cut out of the foam wing
core. The routed counter sunk slot will hold the recessed brass channel flap cam path epoxied in place.

Entire mechanism can be disassembled for inspection and maintenance offsetting effect of accumulative grime. Extreme rearward travel
of flap is anticipated to present an occassional opps requiring attention. Trailing edge of flaps and ailerons are small dia C/F rod sandwiched
between balsa skin union.



Brass channel epoxied into right hand inboard flap cam path guide.



Diagonal view of flap base plate being test fit against flap base end cap.


As stated, carbon fiber vail will overlap each brass tube. Carbon fiber rods with slop free captive ball links are shown above flap channel.


Note single angle alignment of flap base plate, brass tube, carbon fiber rod and ball link. Convergence of line represented by these inline
components with line represented by brass channel end point results in an inline mechancial load when flap is under greatest stress at
full down position.


C/F flap support rods; brass guide tubes for 2-56 flexible C/F push rods; reinforcing brass tube for 2-56 C/F push rods and 4-40 to 2-56
home made couplers.


A bottom up view of the assembled flap showing relationship of previously shown parts. We will now focus on how these parts connect
one to another permitting replication of the B-47E-IV's "suspended and extended" inboard flaps and outboard flaperons.




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Old 03-24-2010, 07:15 PM   #168
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Default A Look At The 1:1 Before We Move Our Flaps Down

To better relate the pieces shown in this thread to a B-47E-IV it would probably help if I were to show the complexity of the B-47
flap and flaperon system.



Rear gear doors are shown closing after takeoff, flaps remained at 100% deployment until 1:1 flew faster than 175 mph.

In a recent email exchange with Jim Diamond, web master of the B-47 Assn, he disclosed pilot manual mandates were not necessarily
followed. Jim, who maintained B-47's, had witnessed pilots milking air
speed by constant adjustment of booster tabs and flaps to increase
airspeed when temperature was hot and when they carried "the" bomb.


Main gear doors are shown closing after takeoff. As referenced above, flaps were to remain at 100% deployment until the B-47
ac
hieved greater than 175 mph airspeed.


The outboard flap section is a flaperon...meaning when less than 20 degree flap angle was deployed it funcioned as both flap and
aileron in order to offset ineffectiveness of the B-47's ailerons.


B-47 was first swept wing aircraft designed by a US manufacturer. 36 degree sweep wing combined with the thin laminar flow wing opened
the penetration envelope but did not permit enough air flow
across ailerons to be of functional use below...and above specific airspeeds.

Penetration envelope closed too far to rear on the B-47 ailerons rendering them virtually useless. This forced corodinated rudder and aileron
turns with heavy emphasis on rudder.


This continued after addition of turbulators to wing surface ahead of every B-47's ailerons to disturb the "too smooth" air.





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Old 03-25-2010, 12:18 AM   #169
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Default It All Hinges On This


Above is rear view of flaps at 22 to 25 degrees, about what our 1/10.2 B-47E-IV flaps will look like at full deployment. I need fowler
flaps for their increase in wing area, not their air brake effect.



Above is a view of flap and flaperon hangars during manufacturing at Boeing. Note midpoint pull pull of outboard flaperon to permit
movement with aileron when deployed 20 degrees or less.

What you see below is a hinge mechanism designed to permit disassembly and maintenance. Parts of the flap mechanism sit in saw
cut running left to right along hinge line. Brass tube is glued in saw cut
between Dremel routed cavities where captive ball links serve
as hinge second members.


When a brass tube is inserted through end of flap, through outer brass tube and through each of the ball links a virtually friction free
hinge drive mechanism is the result.


An out of focus flap track extension arm has two holes...lower is for an inner hinge brass tube that is slid through saw cut outer brass
tubes and Dremeled cavities with ball links and attached
alignment rods which are seen at right. The top hole receives flap track arm
pin to retain arm in flap track.



Assembled flap mechanism with hangers, ball link hinges, and drive tubes minus flap track extension arm pins.



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Old 03-25-2010, 04:12 AM   #170
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Default Design Point Of Origin...

Sam considered several type of drive mechanisms before he decided on a redesign of the M.A.N. (Model Airplane News-Air Age Publishing)
P-38 flap mechanism they sell plans of.

Sam reduced number of system parts and simplified flap track angle since we needed increased wing area to achieve greater lift VS traditional
abrupt air speed reduction that accompanies higher flap angles of attack.


This will permit higher approach throttle to maintain an elongated final approach without a radical change in angle of approach. The B-47
has to land virtually level because of its bicycle style landing gear on fuselage centerline with a pair of outrigger struts, one on each of the
inboard nacelles.


The 1:1 B-47 had landing approach issues related to ineffective ailerons due to aspect ratio of the laminar flow wing and lack of exterior
features to slow it down through parasitic drag. B-47's yawed and Dutch Rolled their way to the end of their runways.


Boeing counter acted yaw during downwind leg, turn on final, and landing approach with a drag chute and needed a brake chute to
bring it to a stop down the middle of the runway.




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Old 03-25-2010, 02:49 PM   #171
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Default Retro Strato...Why Not...Now????

I want to take a moment to bring many near term readers up to speed on why all-of-a-sudden a B-47 appears on your radar, as if
out of no where...

To answer the question of why you have not seen one of these sitting on a runway near you... it is definately not because it had
to be a jet...after all, the XB-47D was powered by turbo prop. It has been modeled at least three times....over the last 62 years.

A C/L planset for a turboprop D model of the B-47 has been available from Air Age Publishing for what seems forever...actually it was
the 1958 May issue of Model Airplane News. R.L. Parks drew planset which is still available for $14.95 using Air Age's online order form....
link appears below.


Below is a fabulous example of the model when completed per the planset.


Mike Potter and his XB-47D constructed from MAN planset.



Propjet B-47D Description:
A fine control-line scale model that could be modified for use with R/C. W/S: 54 in.; L: 43 in.; engines (2) .15/,25 Planset Number: FSP05582 X05582 $14.95 USD.
Planset shown for eductional purposes.
You may purchase it by clicking here: https://secure.rcstore.com/pcd/eServ...aVN1YlRlcm09MA==

This will permit you to begin a scratch built (X)B-47(?) of whatever size and power you desire by simply editing the planset to accommodate
elements of your A, B, XD, E, and E+ B-47.

Or if you want, you can start from a photograph and draw it all up yourself like Joe Martin in 1961... Joe was the first person to compete with
an R/C B-47 (XB-47D) he scratch built...note rubber bands.


Joe Martin, of Sherline mill and lathe fame, appears on '64 New England Scale Championships program cover holding his scratch built
80" w/s XB-47D. The XB-47D turboprop had comparable performance to the pure jet B-47s. Its short coming, was reliability. Below
is a larger image of an XB-47D.



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Old 03-25-2010, 06:44 PM   #172
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Default Flap Side View

Don't be deceived into thinking this is not much deflection. Remember there is another 5.5 degrees of wing incidence added to this
image. This enables us to satisfy the visual appearance associated with the B-47's flaps.


Flap setting 1.


Flap setting 2.




Flap setting 1...during refueling...note the wing swag.




Flap setting 2...full deployment during landing approach.


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Old 03-26-2010, 04:53 PM   #173
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Default Tele-tubie?

Now, this has to shake some of you guys loose from the sidelines...


With the reply I received relative to nil EMI consequence in my specific application here is my alternative.

The actual telescoping flap extension tubes have a pair of "glued in" or "glued out" bands to provide planed c/f to c/f contact surfaces.
This to minimize cantilever of telescoping tube in tube with different diameters.

Pair of bands are CA'd to OD of inner tube and pair are CA'd to ID of outer tube when more than two tubes are used for telescopic
motion. The point is to achieve as short a rod length within flap mechanisim displacement within the foam core wing.

I look forward to pix of Sam's alternative flap mechanism. Everything else from initial system is legacied to the new one with a much
smaller fore to aft footprint.



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Old 03-26-2010, 05:02 PM   #174
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Default

If you're going to mimic that refueling flap setting that should do it! But how are you going to engage and disengage the tubes?

Take care and thanks for posting at WattFlyer!!

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Old 03-26-2010, 06:01 PM   #175
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Default Tele-Tubies

Originally Posted by Don Sims View Post
If you're going to mimic that refueling flap setting that should do it! But how are you going to engage and disengage the tubes?

Hi Don,

What I propose for Sam to work up next will look and function exactly the same as his original. The difference is it being able to be
collapsed to a much smalller footprint.

Above illustration shows how C/F tubes are telescoped with internal stops to achieve a telescopic version. I anticipate it to perform
its function as the original.

Rearview of refueling was used to show about 1/2 of what my max setting will be. I am attempting to make an animated .gif to illustrate
it now.

Thanks for your input


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