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Motor for a new GWS P-51

Old 12-07-2006, 01:13 AM
  #1  
cyclops2
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Default Motor for a new GWS P-51

Retired the Norvel powered one. Getting too slippery.

What is a average motor for a climbout angle of 45 degrees at handlaunch with 700 mahr NIMH. How many cells are needed and what APC electric prop would complete it.
Featherlight rec., micros for R & E.
Is installing a pull-pull worth the weight savings? OR more important. Is it needed in hi speed pullouts to keep controls from flexing and loseing the plane?
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Old 12-07-2006, 01:15 PM
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Sky Sharkster
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Default Mustang Power?

Hello Cyclops, I haven't built the GWS Mustang but have flown other GWS Warbirds and can recommend at least one power system; The HIMAX 2025-4200. This is an inrunner that comes with 3 sets of gears, the prop size depends on which gearing you chose and of course the amount of input voltage. Generally they are between 9"-11". A chart is included with the motor. Any good B/L ESC of about 15A capacity will work, I used a Castle Creations Thunderbird 18.
If you use NiMH cells, an 8 cell pack (9.6V) would be enough but with only 700 mAH your flights will be very short; I'd go for more like 1000-1200mAH. Even better would be a 3s 2100 LiPoly!
With Hitec HS 55's a pull-pull system isn't necessary, they have enough torque to drive the control surfaces, providing the linkages and tubes are solidly mounted. One change I would suggest is to replace the flimsy GWS hinges with better quality material like DuBro CA Hinges. Much stronger, less chance of flutter or failure.
With this motor and at least 9.6V input you will have very good airspeed, launches at 1/2-2/3rds power and strong, but not unlimited vertical.
Ron
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:58 PM
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cyclops2
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I also have 4 Saphion LI-ION 1350 cells . They weigh 1.5 oz. @ 3.6 vdc. each. Acceptable ?
I only use DuBro removable pin hinges as they work fine.
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Old 12-08-2006, 02:03 AM
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Flyer 1
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Try a Venom 3980 with a 5.33/1 gearbox.
It's the standard motor in the Venom P-51, which IS essentially a GWS 'bird. It'll do nearly endless vertical manuevers (just check the video on www.venom-aircorps.com ).
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:35 PM
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Sky Sharkster
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Default Li-Ions for the Mustang?

Hello Cyclops, With the Li-Ions I'd suggest 3 cells for the pack; At 3.6V per cell, 3 cells would be 10.8V. Plenty of power! With a 4th cell your voltage would be 14.4V. I don't know about other motors but this might burn out the HIMAX. With 4 cells you'll need a motor rated for (at least) 15V and most "400" sized motors can't handle that much input voltage. Also you'd have to use a pretty small prop, which wouldn't help the acceleration/low speed flight.
The pinned hinges are the best, if that's what you normally use, go ahead!
Good luck!
Ron
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Old 12-08-2006, 11:16 PM
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cyclops2
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Thanks for the information on the motors.

Stripped the old bird found there was 1 oz. of fuel in and on the plane as dead weight. Washed, dried and weighed it.

I found a GWS P 51 thread and they said pick anything but the 51 due to it's bad stalls compared to all other planes.

Corsair's are nice.
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:23 AM
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Robbie d
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I used a himaxx 2015-4100 and the stock gws gearbox with a 9x7. Used to howl when you dived at full throttle
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Robbie d View Post
I used a himaxx 2015-4100 and the stock gws gearbox with a 9x7. Used to howl when you dived at full throttle
I used that same motor in one of my GWS P-51 and the thing scream across the sky' until a telephone pole jumped out and detroyed it. I now use the Himax 2816-0890 outrunner with sorta the same results (just doesn't scream like the 4100 did).
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Old 01-04-2007, 05:40 AM
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Crash Test Dummy
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Crash9

I also ran that motor on a GWS Corsair with a 11X8.5 prop. I was very fast for a foamy and it had unlimited vert. I lost the motor when I hit my battery cut off in my turn to land. There wasn't enough time to recover and it went nose into the asphalt. It destroyed the motor, sniff sniff. I tried to replace the shaft but the stator was also tweaked.

CTD
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Old 01-04-2007, 04:05 PM
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I finished a GWS P51 build last week and had decided to build it light. I put an Eflite 370 BL in it using a 2S 1500mA battery. The only prop that I had on hand were a 9X6. I didn't have a scale so I don't know what the AUW is. I set the DR at 45% with 40% expo. I was pleasantly surprised when I maidened the plane. I hand launched at full throttle with several clicks of right aileron not knowing what kind of torque roll might happen. There was really nothing to worry about; she took off straight and level and quickly climbed out. It took a bit to trim it out, but once done, I was having fun. I left the control on low rates for both flights that day. With this setup the P51 had good WOT speed, which I would guess at around 45-50MPH. Climb-out was steady at about 45%. Rolls and loops were also good. What really surprised me was that I got about 15 minutes of flight time off these packs. This motor gave close to scale performance which is what I was after. One other thing. The kit was a slope glider so I didn't have a spinner (I have it on order and should have it tomorrow) and I think the performance should improve without that big gaping hole in the front! I decided to wait until I install the spinner to fly her again. I have another GWS P51 kit that I am going to build and cover with aluminum HVAC tape so, it will be heavier than this one. I have an Efilte 450 BL that I am going to put in that one. These are my first GWS kits and I am very impressed! (also on the brown truck tomorrow is a GWS Spitfire slope glider...I am going to put the same power set-up in that one as well)
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Old 01-05-2007, 03:14 AM
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cyclops2
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While the 51 is getting cleaned up and converted to HS-55"s and Pull-Pull
I completed a Corsair with a GWS 2208 and a 25A ESC.

Corsair weight complete , no batteries is 9.0 oz. With 3 Saphions of 1350 mahr she is 14 oz. Ran a 9 x 7 and it pulls like crazy in my hand vertically. I could add another cell to have 14.4v under load if needed. It would add 1.5 oz more.

What gearbox if needed, can I use on either the 51 or the Corsair for sport flying.
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Old 01-05-2007, 02:28 PM
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pd1
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Cyclops. Good luck with the GWS warbirds. I saw in your preveious post, you read a comment that the P-51 stalls .

I have seen those same comments about the P-51 and Me-109.

I don't have the P-51,but I do have the 109. It is the easiest flying plane anyone could immagine.

I have read other threads extolling the virtues of the P-51 and Me-109, and they seem to be more accurate.

I don't know why there is such a wide variety of comments,or range of luck on flying these planes.

I think you just have to try for yourself, I think you'll be very pleased.

Since the 109, I have the Corsair and another 109 and the P-38.
I think GWS kits are fine.

As far as pull pull controls, I see no down side to them, but I used the standard pushrods and I haven't had any problems.
I did use a dowell to join my elevator halves though.
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:46 PM
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Default To Gear or Not?

Hello Cyclops, Is this the motor you have?
http://www.allerc.com/product_info.p...1e96b0b70e3947
If so, this is an "Outrunner" and normally would not use a gearbox. The advantage of outrunners is that the outer case ("can") turns, creating a lot of torque. They are sort of the electric equivalent of a "Radial" motor.
So the props listed on the table are for "Direct Drive". They supply an "X" mount that is bolted directly (flat) to a firewall after the motor is attached to the "X", from the rear. Or you can use the "Stick" mount available for that motor.
I'd be cautious about adding that extra cell. If you look at the table, there are a couple of props listed for 14.8 volts but the thrust output is low, slightly over 15 ounces at (between) 5.5A and 9.5A.
Now move down to the 9050 (9" x 5") and look at the thrust output for 11.1V. It's 21.16 ounces at 9.5A, nearly 6 ounces more thrust with less input voltage and the same (approximately) amp draw!
Even with the slightly lesser voltage of the 3 Li-Ions (10.8 vs 11.1) you'll still have at least 5 ounces more thrust at the same amp draw.
The 14.4V of the 4 Li-Ions is pretty close to the "max" they recommend and I'd guess it's mainly for smaller racing-type aircraft with small props, low drag, and mostly straight-line flying. I bet there's a chance of "cooking" the motor with 4 Li-Ions.
JMO,
Ron

Last edited by Sky Sharkster; 01-05-2007 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 01-05-2007, 10:27 PM
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cyclops2
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Sharkster.

You read me and my power setup perfectly.

I really like the Allerc power input charts.

What if any, is the difference between GWS 9050 H or the L,-- at the end of the designation? Is it RPM sensitive ?-----Does a Black prop or Orange prop have differences ?

What speed and thrust would work in turns of 10--20-- 25 mph winds and gusts. I am on the St. Lawrence River. US--Canada.

The Corsair is molded like it should be landed head first everytime! Thick and rigid. I am waiting for the Programming Card From RC World of Planes.
Kris there, treats me like my mother and father would.

I screw things up, as I am 69 and loseing it a little bit more.
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Old 01-05-2007, 10:36 PM
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I to used a 1/8" dowel between the elevator 1/2's. I first drilled out a HS-55 servo arm to be a VERY tight fit on the dowel. Then Epoxied it between the halves. Put a dowel on the vertical also. R E M is all my planes fly with.

The P 38 keeps winking at me from the box with the 2 --2208's inside also.

That should be GROSS with 2--2208's.
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Old 01-05-2007, 10:54 PM
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Kris recommended I get some DuBro HS-55 control arms for the P-P setups. Fantastic luck. They are black! Magic markered the fishline. Not much looks out of scale at the rear. Centered the elevator horn in the fusalage. 2 nd hole out and CA'd the knots. I pre-tensioned both P-P lines to the same pitch tone at neutral. No slop at all.

I have to figure the best way for P-P on the P 38 while I wait.

Are these forums helpfull and save people from wasting time and money ?

Love them.
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Old 01-05-2007, 10:57 PM
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Default Different Props?

Hello Cyclops, I really don't know what the "H" and "L" designation means, my guess would be "High" and"Low" but why, your guess is as good as mine! I've used only the orange props, not the black.
To tell you the truth, the GWS props aren't my favorites, they break too easily and seem inefficient compared to the APC "SloFlyer" series. The S/F series are very thin and flexible, like the orange GWS, but don't break as easily and seem to "pull" better.
My all-around favorites are the APC "Thin Electric" series, these are thicker and much stiffer, more like a glow prop. I believe they hold the pitch better than any of the "Slow Flyer" types, but being stiffer, they do break easily!
I've flown in 15mph winds but it's not much fun, you end up fighting to stay upwind and can't really do many aerobatics. Maybe you could go out early in the morning or late in the evening when it's (usually) calmer.
Generally, the planes that are slightly overpowered are better in the wind, and a little built-in stability helps too.
Good Luck with the "Lightning", I've got a "slope" version ordered!
Ron
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:07 PM
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cyclops2
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I agree on the APC E's. They out pull GWS on the same input power.

I run the complete plane hanging off of the hook of a zeroed out digital fish scale. Will try the different props when I get the Card.

APC E's may be NG on the Corsair due to all their blade area right at the hub. That big diameter cowl may need a GWS type of blade to get open air bite. Will post all the combos soon.
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by pd1 View Post
Cyclops. Good luck with the GWS warbirds. I saw in your preveious post, you read a comment that the P-51 stalls .

I have seen those same comments about the P-51 and Me-109.

I don't have the P-51,but I do have the 109. It is the easiest flying plane anyone could immagine.

I have read other threads extolling the virtues of the P-51 and Me-109, and they seem to be more accurate.

I don't know why there is such a wide variety of comments,or range of luck on flying these planes.

I think you just have to try for yourself, I think you'll be very pleased.

Since the 109, I have the Corsair and another 109 and the P-38.
I think GWS kits are fine.

As far as pull pull controls, I see no down side to them, but I used the standard pushrods and I haven't had any problems.
I did use a dowell to join my elevator halves though.

What power system are you using in your 109's?
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Old 01-06-2007, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jdriza View Post
What power system are you using in your 109's?
I'm useing a bm 2410-08 in the 109.

The second 109 is being converted to look like a KI 61 Tony, this one will get a bm 2410-12.

The 2410-08 is good, but I would like just a little more power, I think the
2410-12 should do that.
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