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Aileron Trainer - Really?

Old 02-11-2011, 06:58 PM
  #1  
rcers
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Default Aileron Trainer - Really?

OK so I have been flying for 33+ years and have noticed a recent trend on the forums. I see everyone talking and asking about "aileron" trainers.

I just chuckle every time I see that. I also learned on a rudder, elevator plane but didn't spent much energy on an "aileron" trainer.

I guess I am just wondering why folks talk about an aileron trainer.

All I really get into with folks I help is a good first plane, second and third. Don't care if they have ailerons or not, nor how you advance from R/E planes to one with ailerons.

When someone asks me about the difference between rudder and ailerons I just tell them - forget it even has ailerons. All you will notice is how much more responsive your turns can be.

Am I the only one that thinks this strange, and that there really is not such thing as an aileron trainer?

Mike
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Old 02-11-2011, 07:06 PM
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flydiver
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You probably learned in a club. Many, if not most, folks are learning by themselves. Not the best or easiest way but there it is.
The self-correcting ability of a R/E "trainer" plane with dihedral is a lot more newbie friendly than an aileron flat wing plane that goes where you point it when you don't have a clue about pointing anyway.

I buddy box newbies all the time and a number of different planes. After awhile they can sorta fly something like a slow stick. Put them on a very tractable similar plane with ailerons and they are suddenly completely messed up. I use that plane (Wasp-an aileron Slow Stick clone) as a transition from R/E.
You certainly can learn on it but without help the carnage would be significantly worse.

So I think folks are after a similar easy to fly transition plane to make the jump themselves. I've put a number of transitional folks on the buddy box and Wasp. Their relief that they can fly an aileron plane is significant. It usually takes them 5-10" and a few screw ups but if they are ready they get it quickly. OTOH if they did that with their brand spanking new T-28 or similar plane without a short trial experience, there is a fair chance it would not have been pristine very long.
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Old 02-11-2011, 07:19 PM
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I'm with you Mike. I never really understood the whole "when am I ready for ailerons" thing. I don't understand why they don't start beginners with a four channel. I agree that it's just more responsive. You could always set up dual rates and dial the ailerons down to make them less responsive if needed.
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Old 02-11-2011, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by flydiver View Post
You probably learned in a club. Many, if not most, folks are learning by themselves. Not the best or easiest way but there it is.
The self-correcting ability of a R/E "trainer" plane with dihedral is a lot more newbie friendly than an aileron flat wing plane that goes where you point it when you don't have a clue about pointing anyway.

I buddy box newbies all the time and a number of different planes. After awhile they can sorta fly something like a slow stick. Put them on a very tractable similar plane with ailerons and they are suddenly completely messed up. I use that plane (Wasp-an aileron Slow Stick clone) as a transition from R/E.
You certainly can learn on it but without help the carnage would be significantly worse.

So I think folks are after a similar easy to fly transition plane to make the jump themselves. I've put a number of transitional folks on the buddy box and Wasp. Their relief that they can fly an aileron plane is significant. It usually takes them 5-10" and a few screw ups but if they are ready they get it quickly. OTOH if they did that with their brand spanking new T-28 or similar plane without a short trial experience, there is a fair chance it would not have been pristine very long.
I learned to fly by myself - no club around. So your assumption is incorrect. I learned using a 72" glider with elevator and rudder.

You are making my point perfectly. The airplane type (not control surfaces it uses to turn) are what matter. A good first plane needs to be docile and have self correcting ability. But it really does not matter if it uses ailerons or rudder to initiate a turn. Right?

I can setup a the ailerons to be very docile, just like the rudder. But you will have perhaps the added advantage of seeing a roll induced turn not a yaw induced turn.

Mike
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:18 PM
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Heli Jim
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I think the biggest thing that a person will notice is that once you go to ailerons, then you
must use elevator to complete the turn. With many R/E planes, if they have enough dihedral
in the wing, they will turn with just rudder alone.

When I learned to fly, I had ailerons from the get-go. It was big and docil....I think it
was a Goldberg Sr Falcon with a .35 glow engine.
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:23 PM
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There is a misconception that ailerons and dihedral are never to be combined. Most trainers that have them, also have dihedral as well, and in fact, most planes have dihedral, it's the degree of them that is the case. I personally can't stand tail feather only control, it's far too slow in response for my tastes, and I don't like waging the tail of the plane around in order for the rest of it to catch up to finally committing to that turn. Yet, at the same time, you can correct a mistake with a tail feather control before you officially commit to it's course adjustment.

Also, keep in mind, why would you want to have to relearn how to fly a plane, going from tail feather control, over to ailerons. I think it would be a better transition to set up the plane to operate in 2 channel mode, as in adjust the angle of attack on the motor and/or incidence, so that giving it more throttle will get it to nose up, and less, down, so that the new pilot only needs to focus on the aileron's for turning. Any plane can be adjusted to do that, and the next learning step would be to introduce the elevator, not the ailerons.
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:25 PM
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Turner
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Look at it this way, Aileron Trainer = Trainer with Ailerons.
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Old 02-11-2011, 09:04 PM
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I use "Aileron Trainer" only to mean an aileron plane that flies nicely, and is the one AFTER the 3 channel trainer. You'd be surprised how often someone comes out with a Warbird as their second plane, that is tough to fly and totally inappropriate as a second plane. I had one guy show up with a nice little cub, that had ailerons. I flew it once and told him to put it away for a year and go buy a 3 channel trainer. I kept him on the trainer for most of the year. He asked "When can I move up to an aileron trainer". I told him "when you can fly his low power 3 channel plane inverted". You should have seen all the flips and diving spins he got into trying to get inverted, and he became a much better flyer for it.

Vinnie
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:04 PM
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Did I miss something in learning on an aileron trainer? When I was 15 I went to the local club field (Prop Busters) and asked to speak to an instructor. I asked him what plane I should build to learn to fly. I was recommended the GP Trainer 40. I built it, went to the field and learned to fly from that instructor. All this talk about what is better makes me wonder did I miss something in not starting with a no aileron plane. I think being able to do simple tricks would be an asset for an instructor to keep a students interest. Thoughts?
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Heli Jim View Post
I think the biggest thing that a person will notice is that once you go to ailerons, then you
must use elevator to complete the turn. With many R/E planes, if they have enough dihedral
in the wing, they will turn with just rudder alone.
So you are hitting on something and agree you can get a turn with rudder only. However, you will lose altitude, and must use elevator anyway.

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Old 02-11-2011, 10:26 PM
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Heli Jim
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Well, if you are flying a plane with a flat wing, and then use aileron, it will bank, but not
turn. That is why pattern airplanes usually have flat wings. They don't want the turn
induced when they apply aileron.....just pure roll. So you would have to initiate the turn
with aileron and add elevator to complete the turn (and not lose altitude because you
deflected the lift). Just like a real airplane would do.
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:35 PM
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But all airplanes use 3 controls to execute a proper turn. I remember those lessons well in full scale training days. Keeping the ball in the middle.

And yes good pattern ships and aerobatic ships are very good at creating pure results from the controls, roll, pitch and yaw. My 3DHS Slick when you hit the rudder just yaws, ailerons just rolls and elevator just pitch. Helpful when you are doing maneuvers.

And no JZSlenker you didn't miss a thing by learning with ailerons.

Mike
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:57 PM
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Heli Jim
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Mike, you're right but most R/C sport planes and pattern, too, for that matter, don't use
or need rudder for turns. If you are flying some of the larger scale planes, then you
usually find that you have to "kick the ball" to keep the turn correct.

I guess it all boils down to learning on what you have. Both ways are good. If you are
flying a 3 channel, you hook up the rudder control to the aileron function anyway.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:12 PM
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MaxAdventure
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
OK so I have been flying for 33+ years and have noticed a recent trend on the forums. I see everyone talking and asking about "aileron" trainers.

I just chuckle every time I see that. I also learned on a rudder, elevator plane but didn't spent much energy on an "aileron" trainer.

.......
Am I the only one that thinks this strange, and that there really is not such thing as an aileron trainer?

Mike
I take it this is fall out from this thread: http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60205


If so, clearly I'm wrong in my suggestions. Sorry about that. I guess I didn't learn well enough to stay out of things.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:36 PM
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kenchiroalpha
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Hi
When i started out over 30 years ago i learned from my dad
Started with F/F aircraft then moved up to 2 channel rudder and throttle and after a while added elevator and then ailerons
I built my trainers back then from plans and scratch
Of more importance imho is the postion of the wing i flew many high wings and was very confident at handeling them before i moved to a mid wing plane and flew many of them before moving to low wing aircraft
Just my 2 cents
Take care
Hank
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Old 02-12-2011, 12:21 AM
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rcers
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Originally Posted by MaxAdventure View Post
I take it this is fall out from this thread: http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60205


If so, clearly I'm wrong in my suggestions. Sorry about that. I guess I didn't learn well enough to stay out of things.
Nope, not that thread specifically. I have seen it lately with people asking about training with a plane now having ailerons.

Again - I agree there is a training path. But I don't really equate that to ailerons, rather with airplane types like a high wing, docile, low wing loading to start. Then advance from there with higher wing loading, low wing, less docile. Then on to a higher wing loading and aerobatic with no self correction.

And no need to apologize my opinion is just that, everyone gets theirs too. I am wrong as much as the next guy too, just ask my wife. LOL!

Mike
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Old 02-12-2011, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Turner View Post
Look at it this way, Aileron Trainer = Trainer with Ailerons.
THAT is the BEST response of all and I totally agree.

I taught many RC'rs in the 80's .... and that's exactly what I did with them. If the trainer they appeared with had no ailerons - I flew it that day as R/E and showed them how to modify it to fit ailerons. Next session or not long after - I flew them with ailerons on the SAME trainer.

I too as the OP am amused at the Aileron Trainer idea ... and also at some replies that keep on that old path of R/E ..... given the range of airframes out there and dilaing down etc. that can be done now ... making a plane more docile etc. - I consider the R/E model is not so necessary anymore.

Lets face it - there are not many models out there except vintage that will turn just on rudder alone ... they all need elevator input - so what's the beef ?
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Lets face it - there are not many models out there except vintage that will turn just on rudder alone ... they all need elevator input - so what's the beef ?
The beef is the folks that are teaching themselves haven't got the foggiest notion of what you are talking about and won't until they are knee deep in foam parts.

If they find a mentor/club/instructor then they are good to go with about anything. I've taught folks that are mostly good to go after a half dozen batteries. I've also taught others that in spite of enormous enthusiasm and persistence couldn't fly worth a damn after 6 months.

There is no absolute and well defined path. But there are some useful ways to approach the problem....once you fully define the problem.
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Old 02-12-2011, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by flydiver View Post
The beef is the folks that are teaching themselves haven't got the foggiest notion of what you are talking about and won't until they are knee deep in foam parts.

If they find a mentor/club/instructor then they are good to go with about anything. I've taught folks that are mostly good to go after a half dozen batteries. I've also taught others that in spite of enormous enthusiasm and persistence couldn't fly worth a damn after 6 months.

There is no absolute and well defined path. But there are some useful ways to approach the problem....once you fully define the problem.
Fair enough ... but in that you define a problem that is inherent in forum life - understanding of what is being said / posted. I agree that average newbie is in a world he has little comprehension of. That is why I find it amusing some of the replies that wax into areas that totally confuse or bemuddle the new rc'r.

It will always be the case that some will go it alone and others will seek out help. Lets hope some of our postings can create some success ...
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:04 AM
  #20  
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Missing the point. MHO.
The point is that without ailerons you have no control, or DELAYED control, over your steering. (Relying on dihederal to bank the airplane). It is actually the elevator that steers- turns the aircraft.
May be okay on a great big flat field, but if you fly where I fly, more restricted space you NEED positive banking control that only ailerons can give.
Rudder/elevator was only used on trainers because for a trainer you need lightness for slow speed - easier for learner to cope with. On full-size, dihederal is mainly there to aid straight ahead flight - resists yaw.
(Does anyone know of a full size aircraft (not hang-glider) that doesn't have ailerons?).
I'm not a learner, but when I train a learner here, I prefer ailerons, simply, more positive directional control, otherwise student might end up in a tree, ... and I'll end up shooting it down with the Brno!!!

Last edited by Jools; 01-29-2020 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 01-28-2020, 11:36 PM
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My own view is that it is not ailerons that is the issue but the rudder.
You do not steer a plane in flight with the rudder but only use it to apply a 'correction'. From the ground it is difficult to spot the amount of correction required without the benefits of 'on board' instruments.
The only time a rudder alone is used to 'steer' a plane is when its on the ground or very close to it and in aerobatics.
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Old 01-29-2020, 09:04 AM
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Long time ago - I posted an old 8mm video that showed a Starlight Trainer - it was sold by Eastleigh Model Centre in UK ready built by a local guy ... lovely little 1m span job for 15 - 20 IC glow.
You had choice in the shop of 3 or 4ch ... Both had same dihedral as if they were R/E only. I took the 4ch job fitted a 20 up front and the servos as 4ch.

I used that model to train new people from zero ... I had odd other people ask why I was using a 4ch straight off with newbies ... (this was in the 1980's) ... and I usually said ... ok - here's Tx ... try it. I cannot remember any saying it was wrong after they flew it.

It self levelled ... it flew like a R/E ... but you could still do 'rough' aerobatics as in what was usually termed a 'second stage model'.

I had many go from that Starlight to such as the WOT4 ... having lost their fear of ailerons.
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Old 01-29-2020, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Jools View Post
Missing the point. MHO.
The point is that without ailerons you have no control, or DELAYED control, over your steering. (Relying on dihederal to bank the airplane). It is actually the elevator that steers- turns the aircraft.
May be okay on a great big flat field, but if you fly where I fly, more restricted space you NEED positive banking control that only ailerons can give.
Rudder/elevator was only used on trainers because for a trainer you need lightness for slow speed - easier for learner to cope with. On full-size, dihederal is mainly there to aid straight ahead flight - resists yaw.
(Does anyone know of a full size aircraft (not hang-glider) that doesn't have ailerons?).
I'm not a learner, but when I train a learner here, I prefer ailerons, simply, more positive directional control, otherwise student might end up in a tree, ... and I'll end up shooting it down with the Brno!!!
Generally I agree that Ailerons give a better response to bank a model .. but I can also recall in early years of my model flying ... Old Timers that could bank and turn on a sixpence with rudder only !! Let alone need elevator. Assuming of course you could get the blo**y radio gear working !!

But today - yes
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Old 01-29-2020, 09:13 AM
  #24  
Jools
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[hr]$s[/hr]
Originally Posted by quorneng View Post
My own view is that it is not ailerons that is the issue but the rudder.
You do not steer a plane in flight with the rudder but only use it to apply a 'correction'. From the ground it is difficult to spot the amount of correction required without the benefits of 'on board' instruments.
The only time a rudder alone is used to 'steer' a plane is when its on the ground or very close to it and in aerobatics.
Can I get clarification as to what you mean by "correction"?
If I use rudder with a rudder elev aircraft, it's not because I'm 'correcting' anything. Quite the contrary, it's the main control to initiate a turn, -what I'll be doing is yawing so that the dihederal banks the wings, then allowing me to 'pull' the aircraft around with the elevator into the turn. Correction has nothing to do with it.
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Old 01-29-2020, 10:56 AM
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Jools
In a turn as you describe the rudder creates yaw (which is not a turn) and you are relying on the wing dihedral to cause the bank that actually creates the constant turn. Until such time as the turn is fully established the plane is yawing so it is not flying 'normal' to the airflow. This situation can have serious consequences (a spin?) if for any reason a stall is induced at the same time. Most models have considerable reserves of stability so this turn method works quite adequately.

If the ailerons are used to generate the bank that creates the turn they may induce a slight adverse yaw so the rudder is used to correct it. In this way the plane remains 'normal' to the airflow at all times so reducing the consequences from an accidental stall. An important issue if the plane is 'spin sensitive'.

A pilot of full size aircraft will say the same sort of thing.
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