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FAA is at it again

Old 06-06-2017, 02:34 PM
  #1  
Fishbonez
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Default FAA is at it again

Well it did not take too long for the FAA to use the backdoor to continue its overreach "legally." Now it seem the FAA would like the states to make drone laws based on the FAA "recommendations" and they already have a handful of senators supporting it.
https://jrupprechtlaw.com/drone-federalism-act-2017
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:03 PM
  #2  
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Several states already have laws in place regarding 'drone' use:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/transpo...landscape.aspx

All it takes is one incident by some stupid operator to grab the public's attention, and a lawmaker will start drooling.

Seems to me that the FAA "recommendations" promote the safe and responsible use of 'drones'. That doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:29 PM
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By all means you are in titled to your opinion but the courts told the FAA that they were prohibited from promulgating any rule or regulation regarding model aircraft. Which as we all know is federal. Now the FAA is going behind your back and saying to your state "we cant make this law, but you can at your level, and we will just make our recommendation to you" There is nothing you, I or the AMA can do about it. The FAA is clever they dont like to lose. You give an inch and they will take a mile.

Edit: I dont intend to make this a debate but more of informative lets here the opinions of others thread.
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Old 06-06-2017, 05:06 PM
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There has to be some type of rule(s) in place for safe operation of drones. And, there must be consequences for violating those rules, otherwise there is no sense in having them.

My wife and I were walking in a state park, and heard a buzzing noise. It was a camera equipped drone, being flown just a few feet over our heads. It was too warm to be wearing a jacket, otherwise I would have swatted it out of the air.

Recommendations for safe operation have been voluntary until recently. Unfortunately, some are either unaware of them, or just choose to disregard them. In a way, I'm glad it's the FAA that is making recommendations to the states regarding the wording of laws concerning drone flight. If it were left to the lawmakers, with little knowledge of drones other than the fact some constituents called and complained because one was flying over their house, the "rules" could be a lot more draconian.
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:32 PM
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mmmmmm I cannot comment on FAA knowledge but can say this.

I am a member of LARPAS - a body created to advise and assist Latvian CAA to draft rules for Model Aircraft particularly Multi-Rotors such as Camera quads etc.
The Latvian CAA have admitted to us that they really do not know much about the hobby and need information to try and sensibly form the rules.

This is similar action as UK CAA did with SMAE / BMFA ......

I think that is a good indication that FAA / CAA may not be the best judge of rules and regs to apply ? At least UK and Latvia have realised that !

I know this will upset some ... but is it time for AMA to get of its backsides and make representation on this ? If FAA are approaching individual State Legislatures - doesn't that make it easier for Clubs and bodies in each State to get together and lobby the respective State Authority instead of a Federal Nationwide fight ?

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Old 06-06-2017, 08:30 PM
  #6  
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Originally Posted by Stay Quiet View Post
.....That doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.
The problem is, it's a foot in the door, whether it be at the Federal level or the local level....and therein lies the problem!

Originally Posted by Stay Quiet View Post
.... the "rules" could be a lot more draconian.
And rest assured, the "rules" will be a lot more draconian once the bureaucrats get their claws in there.....

Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
...doesn't that make it easier for Clubs and bodies in each State to get together and lobby the respective State Authority instead of a Federal Nationwide fight ?

Nigel
That it does Nigel and the modelers that love this hobby best get off the couch and get there voices heard....AMA has just proven they're unlikely to take a hard stand and support the modelers they say they represent. Being a long time AMA member that last statement is terribly hard for me to put down in print.....SAD!
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Old 06-06-2017, 11:22 PM
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Seems some here are a bit confused.......

It's not the FAA knocking down the doors at the State level for adoption of UAV regulation........for the most part, it's rather the other way around.

Local authority (City, County) receive the brunt of the complaints and civil discord. Your neighbor is more likely to call the local PD or Sheriff/Marshal and raise hell at a local City Hall meeting.

It's been (for the most part), the State who has been pressured by local gov't to align with the Fed's (FAA) and find methods to adopt their regulations.......much like they did for commercial UAV oversight (there was money to make at this level).....lol.

The biggest hurdle local gov't has is enforcement and interpretation. Many City's and County's out here have ordinances in place (borrowed from the State guidelines) but no real legal staff or budget to patrol/enforce. So, it's like running a stop sign or driving over the posted limit, unless one is caught in the act, disrupts an emergency action or causes an accident as a result, citation or impoundment will not take place (even recorded videos by your neighbor) have not held up in court, (what few legal challenges that have been pressed).......really, at this point, a barking dog that has no teeth.

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Old 06-07-2017, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
Seems some here are a bit confused.......

The biggest hurdle local gov't has is enforcement and interpretation. Many City's and County's out here have ordinances in place (borrowed from the State guidelines) but no real legal staff or budget to patrol/enforce. So, it's like running a stop sign or driving over the posted limit, unless one is caught in the act, disrupts an emergency action or causes an accident as a result, citation or impoundment will not take place (even recorded videos by your neighbor) have not held up in court, (what few legal challenges that have been pressed).......really, at this point, a barking dog that has no teeth.
I would have to disagree, if you look at the town of Ft Collins, CO they have an ordinance banning any and all RC activities in the local parks. Its well enforced according to many of the people who thought "I wont get caught."
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
I would have to disagree, if you look at the town of Ft Collins, CO they have an ordinance banning any and all RC activities in the local parks. Its well enforced according to many of the people who thought "I wont get caught."
In the 15 years I've lived here in Mesa, Arizona ALL R/C flight has been banned within Mesa city limits. Neighboring cities aren't near as restricted. In fact the park rangers in those cities will let you know which of the parks are best to fly in. Most aren't worth flying in but still, it's cool that the rangers are so cool.

I guess it all depends on what city you live in. Some are better than others about R/C. Mine happens to suck as there are a LOT of places that would be great to fly in Mesa.

Joe
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:54 AM
  #10  
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That is not an over reach by the feds. They are putting the power back into the states hands where it should be.

Take the ganja laws in the USA. What a mess. Obama signed a stand-down order to the FDA, IRS, and DEA. Any one of those departments can shut it down for good, especially the IRS

To sell Ganja you must have a Federal Tax Stamp that is impossible to obtain. Same as alcohol, you must have a Fed Tax Stamp to sell any alcohol. If not the IRS can confiscate everything for unpaid taxes. Then the DEA and can come around and throw all the growers, labs, and distributors in jail for a long time for cultivating, processing, and selling a controlled schedule 1 substance as defined by the FDA. Fed law trumps state laws.
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
I would have to disagree, if you look at the town of Ft Collins, CO they have an ordinance banning any and all RC activities in the local parks. Its well enforced according to many of the people who thought "I wont get caught."
Maybe I should have qualified my response by also stating that City, County, State and Federally owned land is much more obviously controlled environments where enforcement response can be maintained with manpower and budget much easier. In those cases, laws that have been adopted from FAA guidelines adhere to the same principals as discharging firearms and alcoholic beverages.

In the case of Mesa, AZ, they took the same stance as other high density inner city's (even though they really don't qualify as such) like NY, Chicago, Los Angeles, to name a few. Much of those areas also have many high rise structures and heavy air traffic circulation and rather develop pockets of exception, they took the easier path of resistance and put a blanket over the entire city........arguing that "there is plenty of open space outside the City limits to play with toys".....Mesa has also banned the operation of certain types of off-road vehicles within their boundaries. Yet the open carry of firearms for those over 21 (and not a criminal) can be performed without a license......go figure.

Like stated previously, "for the most part" there are exceptions in every State......legal challenges by RC citizens are less likely to be exhibited when the Agency throws a blanket over the entire population in the name of safety.....like Mesa, where your private property isn't a place of freedom anymore.......California isn't far behind, but since we have quite a few authorized flying fields, a strong AMA lobbyist foundation and an economy that heavily supports RC, our elected officials have been a little less aggressive to establish policies (outside of City, County, State and Federal land), that reduce our RC freedoms completely.

There
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
That is not an over reach by the feds. They are putting the power back into the states hands where it should be.

Take the ganja laws in the USA. What a mess. Obama signed a stand-down order to the FDA, IRS, and DEA. Any one of those departments can shut it down for good, especially the IRS

To sell Ganja you must have a Federal Tax Stamp that is impossible to obtain. Same as alcohol, you must have a Fed Tax Stamp to sell any alcohol. If not the IRS can confiscate everything for unpaid taxes. Then the DEA and can come around and throw all the growers, labs, and distributors in jail for a long time for cultivating, processing, and selling a controlled schedule 1 substance as defined by the FDA. Fed law trumps state laws.
The cultivation laws of "Ganja" in many State's have been modified to permit, within limits, certain amounts for personal consumption........no Federal Tax Stamp required..........many of those farmers also sell (cash only) to licensed medicinal distributors.......without a Federal Tax Stamp.
Ya, the licensed distributor stands to lose license (if caught), but in most cases it is fairly high value, exotic strains sold in smaller portions by the farmer..........been there, done that...!
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Old 06-07-2017, 10:24 PM
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I still ain't got my CB lic, either,,,,,, Two time loser here :-),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, bubsteve
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Old 06-08-2017, 01:17 AM
  #14  
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I really appreciate the "thanks" I've been receiving in this thread.......I'm glad to see there are a few who still acknowledge wisdom, factually supported and informed information.....I'd like to return the favor.....don't be shy....fess-up........it is greatly appreciated.....
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:32 AM
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Well it seems Bruce from New Zealand (I think) has a similar opinion as mine
https://youtu.be/fC5MK69FMvw?t=1m35s

Edit: The only pertinent info is from 1:35 through 4:24 the rest is gobilty goop but other stuff
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Old 06-08-2017, 01:37 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
Well it seems Bruce from New Zealand (I think) has a similar opinion as mine
https://youtu.be/fC5MK69FMvw?t=1m35s
Search the internet hard enough and you'll find someone expressing opinions that agree / disagree with your own.

Actually, it's not that hard.

What's that expression? Everyone has one, and thinks theirs is the only one that doesn't stink? Well, here's mine, since we're all sniffing.

For years, there was no government interference or regulation of the hobby. The only 'rules' were the common sense recommendations on how to fly as drafted by the AMA. I truly believe the reason the AMA established those rules was to prevent government regulation. Politicians like to make knee-jerk reactions to complaints from constituents. If everyone flew in a safe manner, there were no complaints, and therefore no reason for anyone in office to be concerned with a group of hobby flyers.

It worked.

Enter the 'drones'. Easy to fly, cameras on board, all it takes is some money and you're up in the air. Unfortunately, some felt that meant they could fly where they wanted to, with complete disregard for others, and in some cases, to the detriment of others (as in the case of drone flights over the wildfires that prevented airborne firefighting efforts). Complaints were filed, and Big Brother was compelled to step in.

The AMA at that point tried to defend it's MEMBERSHIP (I don't think they had any obligation to represent everyone with a transmitter in their hand.) They tried to explain to Big Brother that their members flew in a responsible manner, just as they have been for decades. If you had an AMA number, it was suggested, there was no need for you to register with the FAA. Well, we all know how that turned out. :-( Personally, all it meant to me was a $5 fee (which was refunded, as I registered early on) and sticking a number on my planes. I still fly at an AMA club field. I still fly responsibly at that field. The new "rules" that were instituted, other than the required FAA number, had no effect on me whatsoever.

Big whoop.

Now, I understand there are those who feel Big Brother is going to come down hard on us. Let them take an inch, they'll go for a mile, they say. I say, if they feel the need to do so, blame those who fly in an irresponsible manner.

The attachment is from our local neighborhood board.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Capture.JPG (33.6 KB, 245 views)

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Old 06-08-2017, 02:46 PM
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As an outsider looking in ... this post #16 by "Stay Quiet" has hit the nail on the head.

Events not so long ago :

Trappy ....
Hogwart ....
Drone shot by irate 'father'

Just these alone are frightening. Guy flies in New York streets ... crashes walls, flying over pedestrians ... flying over beach and videoing even when asked to stop .... fitting a gun to a quad .... and the father who shoots a drone who claims it was filming his daughter ...

It does not matter the rights or wrongs of each ... the fact is authorities such as FAA do not view as isolated incidents. My Father was Senior Figure for many years in UK CAA, reporting to Director and Minister. If a violation occurred - it was not viewed as a single incident and industry received related CAA response to avoid repeat.
I can only assume FAA acts similarly.

I think one item that separates USA from UK in this matter - is the UK I think has a greater % modellers members of BMFA than USA has in AMA. It would appear that AMA is not as widely subscribed to as BMFA in % of RC'rs out there. BMFA is respected and does actively get involved in CAA matters where it affects modellers.

As I mentioned earlier - its a need for those who wish to make changes to get up and join AMA ... make voices heard ... get AMA fighting to protect modellers and sensibilise any regulations affecting you.

Its no good moaning about AMA if you sit on the sidelines and do nothing !

Nigel
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Old 06-09-2017, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post

As I mentioned earlier - its a need for those who wish to make changes to get up and join AMA ... make voices heard ... get AMA fighting to protect modellers and sensibilise any regulations affecting you.

Its no good moaning about AMA if you sit on the sidelines and do nothing !

Nigel
Agreed and I would add FAA or any govt for that matter. One of the main problems I see is that this hobby has become so divided. The people refuse to come together against an organization that would want nothing more but to regulate a hobby out of existence. If people think the AMA will help they are naive if they think that their club will not be affected, again they are naive. Just my .02
I dont want this thread to turn into a debate because if it becomes that it has been proven to be closed because folks can not debate nicely. I just want to open up for opinion, discussion and keep people informed on the issue.
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Old 06-09-2017, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
Agreed and I would add FAA or any govt for that matter. One of the main problems I see is that this hobby has become so divided. The people refuse to come together against an organization that would want nothing more but to regulate a hobby out of existence. If people think the AMA will help they are naive if they think that their club will not be affected, again they are naive. Just my .02
I dont want this thread to turn into a debate because if it becomes that it has been proven to be closed because folks can not debate nicely. I just want to open up for opinion, discussion and keep people informed on the issue.
When one states "I would disagree" the debate has already started......you're just fortunate to be here at WattFlyer.......otherwise...enough said...!

Those of us RCer's who live in the U.S. and deal with AMA, FAA, local gov't., fly RC for enjoyment or profit, understand the typical frustrations most of the hobby has endeared the last 10yrs..........whether it's over reaching gov't. political intervention or knee jerk reaction to safety, privacy and the fear of "lack" of control...........this is not just my opinion, it has been researched, documented, and publicized through news-paper, cable and internet for more than 7yrs.....even Congress has information that we have not been privy to.
If one is not an "informed and or educated (keeping up with the times) serious hobbyist by now........well that rock or cave one is living under is shrinking by the moment....... rapidly.......!

The light really shines on the subject when one desires to take the hobby to another level...for profit.........the average hobbyist has not a clue what is really happening in the background of the UAV world, unless one intends to go commercial and researches all of the hoops-loops and regulations (and cost) one has to jump through.....and it continues to evolve.

That said, having been a "hobbyist" for +15 years prior to commercial endeavors, things seemed so much less complicated and enjoyable when all I had to worry about was regulation free open space and renewing my AMA membership in order to participate at "major club" functions friends invited me to..........If a serious hobbyist has heart burn over UAV agency regulation now....well, I'd be more than happy to pass on some Ranitidine and a cup of water.....

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Old 06-09-2017, 07:19 AM
  #20  
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As with anything else - the hobby is evolving. We have fixed wing models now that have flight stabilisers in making them far easier to fly. The boxes tell buyers - easy to fly.
We have multi-rotors of all sizes and config sold on supermarket shelves ....

Is it no wonder that incidents occur and regulations start to appear ?

Wasn't so long ago - the White House had an 'incident' ...... and that was a Federal Agent flying one and lost it over the WH back lawn !

It seems to me - we are in the early stages similar to car drivers in early 20th century. For years they could buy a machine and go drive. Then regulations after accidents / incidents / worry took over. It evolved to today's licencing. Even full size flying - same story.

I just hope that we do not end up similarly ! But if the idiots who disregard sensible guidelines - may just tip the balance for the many.

Nigel
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Old 06-09-2017, 12:19 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
One of the main problems I see is that this WORLD has become so divided. The people refuse to come together against an organization that would want nothing more but to regulate THEM out of existence.
not just related to this hobby...fixed it f/you.
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Old 06-09-2017, 12:51 PM
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I think that many people get 'bamboozled' by the world we live in now. With the communications revolution we now have, many just do not understand which way to go. Media plays a huge role in herding such people towards the medias goal, rather than the persons best.

An example of peoples change :

Years ago if you wanted to know about a subject - you researched it, compared varying information found. Weighed it up and made what is now called an Informed Decision.

Now - click on Wikipedia and just accept it as fact. Despite the fact that Wikipedia is no g'tee of factual content due to its reader-based editing facility.

Apply that to Elections .... and matters like this one .....

Nigel
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Old 06-09-2017, 01:44 PM
  #23  
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I think we are all at least somewhat in agreement in that we don't want over-regulation of the hobby (and I include myself in that group), but that some regulation is required to prevent over-regulation.

Catch-22

Responsible flyers don't need regulation. They are, basically, self regulating. They fly responsibly, in areas that are designated for such, and don't create situations that would bring the hobby into a negative light for the public, or public officials.

Irresponsible flyers need regulation, and it's potential consequences, to attempt to prevent them from flying in a manner that, (pardon my language) pisses people off, thereby creating negative publicity for all - even the responsible ones - and jeopardizing the existence of the hobby in the future.

How do we go about finding a middle ground?

The AMA Safety Rules, which were non-government, seemed to work just fine for a long time. Why did they work? Because people obeyed them!

The AMA, or any other hobby group, does not want to come out and say the person that flew their drone at the zoo, lost control, crashed into the tiger pen gate, and released the tigers which then ate a few zoo visitors, had the right to fly the drone there. That destroys all credibility of the group. There are those that will continue to fly in a manner that potentially angers or endangers the public until they are caught and punished. The AMA can't reason with them, nor can any other legitimate group formed to represent those that do follow the rules.

Rules (laws?) are going to be put into place in an effort to discourage those who otherwise don't follow the voluntary rules and guidelines for safe model operation. Sorry, but that door has been opened. If those laws closely align with the AMA Safety Rules (or similar rules proposed by another group), and you follow the guidelines when you fly, you have nothing to worry about. I've never been stopped for speeding in my car while driving the speed limit. If you choose not to fly in a safe manner, there have to be consequences to your actions, otherwise there is no reason not to continue to do so.
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Old 06-09-2017, 02:07 PM
  #24  
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There is also the misconception of Rules to STOP people doing something..

No - Rules are there to DETER from an act or action and to give Law Enforcement / Authorities something to use if caught.

Speed limits on roads do not physically stop a person speeding. But it tells them a) what is considered safe speed and b) that IF CAUGHT - they will be punished accordingly.

Nigel
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Old 06-09-2017, 04:25 PM
  #25  
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So much misconception now being tossed around in this thread.....!

Actually, Rules do not give law enforcement/authorities something to use if caught.........in that capacity, law enforcement is mandated to use Law.

As is in the case of AMA guidelines and FAA regulation......

Rules, by accepted definition throughout modern society's, are similar in many ways to Law but differ in the methods of consequence. They are also only enforceable by the person or body who has put them in-place.

Rules (guidelines) are put into place for the same reasons Laws are:
To establish standards
Maintain order
Resolve disputes
Protection of rights and safety

The difference is Law must be followed, adhered to and obeyed by everyone within a given jurisdiction. They can not be changed or modified at the whim of an individual or body without gov't authority. The consequences for breaking the Law can be severely punishable and remain on public record.

Rules only fit the conditions for which they were established and can be changed or modified by the author(s) without gov't interaction. Consequences for breaking the Rules are far less severe and are not recorded as public record.

So much for the Ethics 101 course.......as for AMA and FAA, guidelines (Rules) have been established by the AMA to provide as stated above. They fit the conditions AMA has found to be applicable within their organizations culture. They have the ability to change their rules based on their constituents needs and desires. You won't be put in jail if you break one of their Rules that are not also a Law.

FAA, on the other hand, establishes Laws that must be obeyed by everyone within their jurisdiction......they are not guidelines (although they offer such to organizations like the AMA) and are punishable with jail time.

I know many of the contributors to this thread probably are aware of the differences.........just clearing up the muddy waters a few here continue to inject while standing from the outside looking in.
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