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Throttle Cut Off

Old 06-11-2016, 02:16 PM
  #26  
AndyKunz
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Actually you surprised me there ... I expected later entrance. I beat you by about 5+ years ... as my Brother left and I had no-one to hold the CL model while picking up lines. I then went RC with some really awful 'pray as you go' gear !!
Pretty much the same here. We built and flew all day long, when not mowing the grass.

My big brother has eye-hand coordination out the wazzoo - he went from no RC experience to flying fast aerobatics in a week. I'm still improving. My son is better than me. But I design and build, both quite intensely. I'm pretty happy when one of my aerobatic friends runs a plane through the ringer on the maiden flight - I'm happy with big ovals, a loop or a roll or two.

Second surprise is not having knocked the Throt Cut switch ... that explains why you are not so hot for the extra safety measure.
But when it happens to you ... and it will .... then you'll appreciate what I'm on about.
I don't get to make feature or function choices. I contribute ideas and maintain the database, but we have a core group of modelers (and some lawyers, and some marketeers) that decides what and when things happen. Risk management is always part of the equation.

I have a model that has a gouge in one wing ... filled of course now ... that was a prop that model shot forward and buried prop into when thro cut switch was knocked and throt stick moved ...

I hope you don't have it happen ...
Me too. I hope it happens to nobody.

Andy

Build thread of latest design:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2651331

Maiden flight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBL6tOVbpOc


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Old 06-11-2016, 05:39 PM
  #27  
solentlife
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"Second surprise is not having knocked the Throt Cut switch ... that explains why you are not so hot for the extra safety measure.
But when it happens to you ... and it will .... then you'll appreciate what I'm on about."


I don't get to make feature or function choices. I contribute ideas and maintain the database, but we have a core group of modelers (and some lawyers, and some marketeers) that decides what and when things happen. Risk management is always part of the equation.
I think you missed my point ... I was surprised that YOU haven't knocked the Throt Cut switch at any time ...

I realise that Corporate structure has its levels ... been in them too many years. In fact I got so sick of Office Politics palying into all levels of Management - even Risk and safety assessment ... I eventualy packed my things, closed my desk and left !! Never looked back even though I was highly paid and open expense account etc.

Nigel
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Old 06-11-2016, 05:46 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
I think you missed my point ... I was surprised that YOU haven't knocked the Throt Cut switch at any time ...
I've been called clumsy more than once, with good cause. As a result, I compensate my behaviors to minimize possible bad events.

When I pick up my radio, my hand is holding it in such a way that the throttle cut switch is held in the off position. It is on a switch (H) which is in a position that requires positive action to manipulate.

When I carry my transmitter, I habitually carry it with my left hand, thumb locking the throttle down (since my original radios didn't have a throttle lock feature, or mixes, or much of anything). The switch is away from my body (so it won't be bumped into on position), and if it were my thumb is still holding the throttle off.

I use the Preflight subsystem as well, configured to force RF off until completed.

Just like in full-scale aviation or any other venue of life, there are some risks. Proper preparation and consistent practice minimize them.

Andy
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Old 06-11-2016, 06:10 PM
  #29  
solentlife
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I too have a pre-flight routine built up from many years of 27 and 35Mhz flying ... and later 2.4 ... but there are still one or two times when I've been caught out.

As we know it only takes ONE moments lapse and BHAM ...

Many years ago .. Pal of mine asked me to fly his WOT4 one day ... Paul was an experienced RC'r ... and I didn't think anything of it ... we often flew each others models.

It was a farmers field and therefore all hand launch ....

Fired up the OS40FSR ... Paul had it in hand to launch ... I said I was OK to go ... and started opening throttle ... for some reason Paul put his hand up and into the prop ... to this day no-one can explain why ...

We rushed him to hospital and he was lucky ... nothing lost.

For next 6 months or so he couldn't bend one finger ... they x-rayed ... prodded ... couldn't figure out why.
One day he came to field to fly and showed his finger moving fine. Then he showed us the 1/4" sliver of 10x6 MAS black prop that had been embedded inside the finger stopping it bending ! It just literally came to surface one day .. and he pulled it out.

OK ... its not Throt Cut ... but what it illustrates is that moment of lapse and BHAM ...

Today we all see people with electric models and think they are less dangerous than a glow or gasoline job ... how wrong they are.

Nigel
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Old 06-11-2016, 06:13 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
OK ... its not Throt Cut ... but what it illustrates is that moment of lapse and BHAM ...
Great example of a single-point failure being catastrophic. What we are talking about here are multiple failures before catastrophy.

Andy
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:30 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
That's typical throt cut but you have another step you can put - throttle cut with the logic switch ....
You flick off the throt cut switch, move stick up to max, then back to idle - throttle is now active.

That simple addition makes a world of difference to one of the safety aspects of our modern radios.

I apologise to people - but having had the straight throt cut knocked and throttle act ... I am a dedicated convert to the logic switch version.

Nigel
I've not thought about that...thanks.
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:59 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by AndyKunz View Post
Great example of a single-point failure being catastrophic. What we are talking about here are multiple failures before catastrophy.

Andy
Sorry but must disagree .....

The Throt Cut on its own is a single failure item waiting for a slip up. I would also suggest that a slip up of knocking the Thro Cut would IMHO also often cause throttle stick to be moved.

Anyway - my example was to illustrate that we are not robots or machines that act specifically .. that we are prone to mistakes and lapses that have dire consequences. There's no way round what he did in terms of switches etc. but with Throt Cut there is ....

I work in a field that has potential for catastrophic disasters of epic proportions.

To give an idea of the level I am involved in ... many years ago when I was Officer on a ship ....

85,000 m3 of LNG (Methane to those who are not into Petrochems) ...

Sailing up NE'ly direction from Lumut Brunei on route to Tokyo bay.

Nearng top of Palawan Passage (this is West Coast of Philipines) ... I was called on radio by US Navy ... (and believe me this is no joke like the Irish Lighthouse .. this really happened ... )

Navy : "Tanker Northbound alter your course .... etc. etc."

Me : "US Navy ... this is ST ****** I cannot alter course for you in such waters - sorry but no"

Navy : "ST ***** we are in operations and you must alter course"

Me : "USS California - for your information we are loaded with 85000 cubic metres of Liquid Natural Gas ... and if alter course and hit any wreck or obstruction littered here - you could have the biggest explosion the world has ever seen taking out YOU, ME and a lot of the Philipines coast ... No."

Navy : "ST ****** understood ... Out"

That was a typical encounter with Nimitz and her Escorts "Texas" and "California" ... when they were based out of Subic Bay.

Safety in my world takes precedent over any other factor. When Jules gave me the extra switch to increase throttle safety ... I readily saw its value and instigated it .... Now I have a 99.9999999% reliability that I shall not have another throt cut incident.

Sorry Andy - if Spektrum and others decide they do not wish to avail of the extra safety - that's their choice ... but not mine. There's an ever growing band who are moving away from proprietary set-ups and into more programmable, greater function radio systems. This is having a knock on effect to the recognised brands in implementing more features to try and keep up with such open source functions.
This Logic Switch matter is not even an advanced level feature ... that is what I find incredible that others don't have it. Maybe they do but named / implemented differently.

I'm not starting a brand war here ... just stating my surprise at such a lack of ...

Nigel
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:48 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Sorry but must disagree .....

The Throt Cut on its own is a single failure item waiting for a slip up. I would also suggest that a slip up of knocking the Thro Cut would IMHO also often cause throttle stick to be moved.
No, it's a double failure.

1) Throttle moved to non-zero position, AND
2) Throttle Cut switch moved.

Andy
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:30 PM
  #34  
kyleservicetech
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Originally Posted by AndyKunz View Post
You can do the same with Spektrum.
The
Andy
Now, that would be useful on my DX9.

Can you provide a quick note on how?

I do have the throttle kill active on all my models. But, the throttle must be at zero before flipping the throttle cut switch to throttle active.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:40 PM
  #35  
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Mix THR > THR
Rates = -100%, -100%
Offset = -100%
Trim = Act
Switch = your choice, but make sure the checkboxes do what you want.

Now enable Thr Cut.

When you do this, both switches need to be in the right position to give your throttle control.

This is how we made a Throttle Cut function before we had is as a menu option

Andy
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:47 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Now, that would be useful on my DX9.

Can you provide a quick note on how?
I don't think it really is possible, at least not with the 'logic switch' functionality that Nigel describes. The programmable logic switch requires genuine user programmability which the easy to use menu driven Spectrum interface lacks (I find the open-tx interface impenetrable so it's a double edged sword)

Yes, with Spektrum you can have a throttle cut switch but the problem with a conventional cut switch is that if you release it either accidentally or deliberately AND the throttle is open the motor goes instantly to open throttle.

Yes Andy is right that this required two failures (throttle open AND switch set to run) but those two things could occur if for instance you dropped the Tx, or maybe you simply forgot to check for a fully closed throttle.

The logic switch function does sound like a good idea but overall I'll happily take the easy to use menu driven Spektrum interface over the powerful but (to my mind) difficult and complex Open-Tx interface.
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Old 06-13-2016, 04:40 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by AndyKunz View Post
No, it's a double failure.

1) Throttle moved to non-zero position, AND
2) Throttle Cut switch moved.

Andy
Technically yes ... but as I said - usually the throt cut being knocked usually allies with the stick moving ...

But anyway even if the stick does not move ... the throt cut switch knocked has made live your stick wirhout any other safety measure to prevent incident. What happens if you don't notice throt cut is now no longer activated ?

My reasoning is that like speed limits on roads and various other safety items - they are written based on the lowest denominator ... ie the idiots of the world. So a throttle safety working with your cut switch as an extra safety measure has to be a good idea ...

Nigel
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Old 06-13-2016, 04:45 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Technically yes ... but as I said - usually the throt cut being knocked usually allies with the stick moving ...
Left front throttle, right rear switch. If one is trying to catch a slipping tx the stick would go up, but the switch would be pushed to the "off" position.

What happens if you don't notice throt cut is now no longer activated ?
I feel like you're grasping now, Nigel.

So a throttle safety working with your cut switch as an extra safety measure has to be a good idea ...
If somebody is that bad, they shouldn't be flying. But just in case, there's a second Throttle Cut switch provided in my previous post and it can work in series with the other two methods that are already given.

Andy
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:48 PM
  #39  
solentlife
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Sorry Andy ... but I am really surprised by the anti sentiment to what is a safety matter.

"If somebody is that bad, they shouldn't be flying" .... you cannot be serious with that surely ... Never gone out of house without something ... not noticed ... ever missed seeing something ?

I'm not grasping at anything ... until this thread - I was not aware of Spektrum lacking Logic switches ... having seen them on so many radios of guys I fly with - it is now an eye-opener that Spektrum is not one. I have to say that I only know one flyer with Spektrum who flies with us ... and I know he's looking at a Taranis now.

I'm calling a truce Andy ... we don't want things to get out of hand like another forum does.

Cheers
Nigel
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:51 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Sorry Andy ... but I am really surprised by the anti sentiment to what is a safety matter.
My only point, which I have made at least twice prior, is that this is only YOUR perception that this is an important safety issue.

When the team (more likely, the RM Team) decides it's a safety issue, then I'll support it. In the meantime, there is a simple way to convert out 2-level safety to up to N for as many mixes as the operator thinks are important to make it safer for him.

That "r" on safer is important. At some point the user needs to assume responsibility.

Andy
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:04 PM
  #41  
solentlife
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Given that the Logic mix was passed to me by Jules on the 9xr thread RCG ... and was also supported by many others when asked / commented on various others .... who advocated such use ... I think that was convincing enough for me to input the switching.
Once I actually saw it in use and remembering mishaps not only of my own - but others with the Throt Cut ... I was sold on it 100%.

We all assume responsibility for our actions ... well I do and I'm sure you do ... but it does not stop us making mistakes.

As I said - I'm calling a truce as I feel this is heading for a road that neither of us want.

Nigel
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:12 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by AndyKunz View Post
Probably. I've only been in RC since about 1973, with the first mods to my World Engines 6 about 1977.



No.

Andy
OMG... My first Radio was a World Engines Blue Max. Tell me you don't know Mick Wilshire....
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Old 08-07-2016, 06:25 PM
  #43  
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No. I'm in the USA, he's in the UK as I understand it.

Andy
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:57 PM
  #44  
solentlife
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Mick Wilshire is a name that is ringing bells for me but from my previous time of flying in UK shows etc.

Nigel
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:59 PM
  #45  
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There's a saying in engineering:

You can't make anything idiot-proof because they keep making "better" idiots.

You can put in as many stages of safeties as you want. Someone will find them annoying and disable them, then blame the equipment for not having adequate safeties when something goes wrong.
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Old 08-08-2016, 03:45 AM
  #46  
solentlife
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
There's a saying in engineering:

You can't make anything idiot-proof because they keep making "better" idiots.

You can put in as many stages of safeties as you want. Someone will find them annoying and disable them, then blame the equipment for not having adequate safeties when something goes wrong.
Its human nature unfortunately.

Nigel
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Old 08-08-2016, 05:39 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Given that the Logic mix was passed to me by Jules on the 9xr thread RCG ... and was also supported by many others when asked / commented on various others .... who advocated such use ... I think that was convincing enough for me to input the switching.
Once I actually saw it in use and remembering mishaps not only of my own - but others with the Throt Cut ... I was sold on it 100%.

We all assume responsibility for our actions ... well I do and I'm sure you do ... but it does not stop us making mistakes.

As I said - I'm calling a truce as I feel this is heading for a road that neither of us want.

Nigel
One option would be to substitute a "Locking" type of toggle switch for the motor kill switch function. I've been using them for receiver switches. And, the unit I've been using is absolutely bullet proof.

You have to pull up on the toggle switch before it can be flipped over. If the switch lever isn't pulled up first, you can not flip the switch. We used them at work on Ground Trip Block switches on our breaker controls. An accidental flip of that switch could shut down electric power to a few big businesses. (We had customers force these switches with a pliers, bending their arm. But they still didn't flip position. They ignored our label on the switch to pull on its lever)

Would I install one of these in my DX9 transmitter? No. To me, it'd just be a pain in the ***. But, they do work very well for receiver switches. Last fall, I ordered 30 of these switches for my club members. All 120 switch contacts were measured on those 30 switches with my micro-ohmmeter. Every contact measured less than 0.0015 Ohms, right out of the box.

I put all four contacts in parallel, wired them with battery connectors, and sold them to my club members. (Made about $1.20 per hour!)

http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...849-ND/2105557
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Old 08-08-2016, 08:34 AM
  #48  
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Same idea as the later truck 'handbrakes' fitted for a short while then discarded.

Switch was set in front drivers panel, pull switch lever out and then click UP. Ford told us UP was decided to be safest ! It then activated the air system to lock the brakes on.

It was discarded after a few incidents of activation while moving ! The ball in the switch was a form of Bakelite and it wore down with frequent use, till you could flick switch without pulling out.

Anyway totally different application I know !

Thebsafetybswitch idea of er9x just adds that small bit to make our lives that little bit safer. Just means flick thrott cut switch, thrott stick down to zero and then it activates. It cannot activate at any other thrott stick position as simple thrott cut can.

Nigel
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