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Throttle Cut Off

Old 05-27-2016, 01:58 AM
  #1  
stanz358
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Default Throttle Cut Off

Hello all,

I have a throttle cutoff switch programmed for all of my models. I elected to put in on a 3 position switch on the front of the TX rather than on a 2 position switch on the top. Figured it would less likely be accidentally flipped that way.

It's pretty much second nature for me to flip in on after landing and leave it that way until ready for take off. But What I'm trying to do is set a warning so the model won't even initialize unless the throttle cut is on. I can get it working in a 2 position switch but not 3. I take t that this is normally done on a 2 position but any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks
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Old 05-27-2016, 01:14 PM
  #2  
formontoya
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The first thing would be what system are you using? On my Taranis it is extremely simple to do...9X is easy, just not quite as simple.
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Old 05-27-2016, 01:56 PM
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Regardless of what transmitter you have the only way to stop an ESC from initialising (arming) is to prevent it from seeing a closed throttle signal. It doesn't matter how cleaver your Tx is, that's the only way.

So if you want the ESC not to arm unless you have the throttle cut activated you would need to set the 'run' position on the switch to raise the throttle by (say) 5-10% using a mix.

This way if you power the model on with the switch set to 'run' then the ESC sees a 5-10% open throttle and wont arm and so wont run even if you open the throttle fully. Only by activating the cut switch will the ESC see 0% throttle and arm.

The down side of this method is that as soon as the switch is returned to 'run' the motor will start to run slowly, even though the throttle stick is closed. It will then operate like a nitro engine so that closing the throttle just makes it idle rather than stop. To stop requires the cut switch.
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Old 05-27-2016, 01:58 PM
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stanz358
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Sorry - DX9. Throttle cut portion is easy - that's below

Switch F-
0 - Motors Armed
1 - Throttle Cut on - -130%
2 - Throttle Cut On - -130%

I'm just trying to see if there is any easy way on the Warning Menu or elsewhere to prevent the model from initializing unless the throttle cut is on.

2 Position switch I got it to work - Assigned Aux1 to Switch H and set over + 2 %. This calls out warning - servo over 2% (not exactly what I'd like) but it works and prevents initialization until I move the switch to throttle cut on.

I tried to get this working on 3 position - (F) but can't get the initialization/warning piece to work.

As mentioned, this is "almost" second nature to me now, cut the engine immediately after landing and leave it there until next one up. But I'm now teach my kid to fly and I want something "fool proof" in place.

Hope I explained this correctly. Thanks for taking time to reply.
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Old 05-27-2016, 02:15 PM
  #5  
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Regardless of what transmitter you have the only way to stop an ESC from initialising (arming) is to prevent it from seeing a closed throttle signal. It doesn't matter how cleaver your Tx is, that's the only way.

So if you want the ESC not to arm unless you have the throttle cut activated you would need to set the 'run' position on the switch to raise the throttle by (say) 5-10% using a mix.

This way if you power the model on with the switch set to 'run' then the ESC sees a 5-10% open throttle and wont arm and so wont run even if you open the throttle fully. Only by activating the cut switch will the ESC see 0% throttle and arm.

The down side of this method is that as soon as the switch is returned to 'run' the motor will start to run slowly, even though the throttle stick is closed. It will then operate like a nitro engine so that closing the throttle just makes it idle rather than stop. To stop requires the cut switch.

Thanks - the only reason I went down this path is awhile back, plane on the runway and I bent over for something or other, bumped the throttle to full and up she went ready or not . That's when I programmed all models with cutoff and I've gotten into a good habit of flipping the switch but was just trying to go the extra step to prevent esc from arming. I'll have to give your suggestion a go and see what happens. I just wasn't sure if I was going about this the right way or what everyone else does.

Thanks
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Old 05-27-2016, 03:08 PM
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Yep, I'm sure we have all bumped a throttle stick once or twice. The simple protection is to set the throttle stick to (say)25% open when you plug in the plane's battery. The ESC will then fail to arm, even if you bump the stick nothing will happen. The only way to get the motor to run is close the throttle fully, wait for the arming beeps, then open the throttle and fly... It would be very hard to do that accidentally.

I think on the DX9 you can program a Tx start-up 'checklist' that requires you to tick off a list before the Tx starts up. I did try this once but found it a pain to be honest. It might also be possible to set the cut switch to activate an alarm that stops the Tx from starting up but I've not tried it (was that what you had in mind?). The problem with these options is that it only stops the Tx from powering up. If the Tx is already turned on and you just put another battery in the plane or power cycle the plane for any reason then it wont help you.
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Old 05-28-2016, 08:54 AM
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Having throttle set up from idle to prevent arming can with some cause ESC to enter program mode - not advised.

The way I have put a safeguard extra to throttle cut is the 'logic switch'.

The logic switch basically will not allow any throttle action until the throt-cut is put to on and stick moved up and back to idle again.
Basically ESC arms normally without risk of entering programming mode. The logic switch says you must move the stick up and back to activate so removing the single move accident.

Nigel
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Old 05-28-2016, 09:45 AM
  #8  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Having throttle set up from idle to prevent arming can with some cause ESC to enter program mode - not advised.
That's why I said 25% open. Throttle has to be 100% (or close) open to enter programming mode.
The way I have put a safeguard extra to throttle cut is the 'logic switch'.

The logic switch basically will not allow any throttle action until the throt-cut is put to on and stick moved up and back to idle again.
Basically ESC arms normally without risk of entering programming mode. The logic switch says you must move the stick up and back to activate so removing the single move accident.

Nigel
That's 'kinda' what the OP was talking about originally with the throttle cut switch (without the need to move throttle stick up and back down). The problem he had was being concerned about forgetting to activate the switch. The other problem is that his Tx doesnt to the best of my knowledge have the functionality to do what you describe, so it's a moot point anyway.
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Old 05-28-2016, 11:09 AM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
That's why I said 25% open. Throttle has to be 100% (or close) open to enter programming mode.
The amount of open throttle to trigger programming mode can be actually a lot less than 100% ... we all say 100% when people ask about it - but honest - I have had various branded and unbranded go into the beep sequences at just up from IDLE .. it did not take much.


That's 'kinda' what the OP was talking about originally with the throttle cut switch (without the need to move throttle stick up and back down). The problem he had was being concerned about forgetting to activate the switch. The other problem is that his Tx doesnt to the best of my knowledge have the functionality to do what you describe, so it's a moot point anyway.
I was under impression that most radios had the Logic Switch or another name for this is SAFETY SWITCH functions in programming. You can go into programming and set Logic steps for any channel. I agree that er9x and OpenTx have this as LOGIC and plainly listed in menu ... but believed that even Spektrum had it as SAFETY switches .. or similar title.
I'm surprised to read that a programmable radio may not have such.

I think using the 3 position switch is IMHO a non-starter ... and to sort a better way.

I was like most people - just had the plain ON / Off throttle cut till Jules over on the 9xr / er9x threads got talking about SAFETY switches ... I now use the logic and I have to say its prevented a few inadvertent throttle mishaps.


Nigel

"EDIT" .......... just read the DX9 manual ... well I now know where my money will not be going !! No Logic or safety switches !! there must be a way to program something similar ?
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Old 05-28-2016, 11:39 AM
  #10  
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Got it working, not ideal setup so I just have throttle cut switch and custom voice alert when I initialize to remind me what position the switch is in. That will suffice for now. Such an important safety feature that I'm wondering why it's not built in to the warning menu. Flaps and gear are which to me is ridiculous since a visual check is all that's needed there. Maybe I'll make a suggestion to spektrum about that feature for possible future update. Thanks everyone for your suggestions
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Old 05-28-2016, 01:36 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
"EDIT" .......... just read the DX9 manual ... well I now know where my money will not be going !! No Logic or safety switches !! there must be a way to program something similar ?
Personally i dont see it as a big deal. The DX9 has a throttle cut switch which when activated disables the throttle. The only difference between that and your 'logic switch' (which i've never seen on any Tx FWIW) is that you dont need to open then close the throttle to get the motor running.
But the DX9 switch still works as a safety switch, as long as it's set to it's 'safe' position the motor won't run.

PS.. I've never experienced an ESC entering program mode at less than 50% throttle.. I'm not saying it can't happen but I've yet to see it happen, if you know of an ESC that does it I'd be interested to see it.
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Old 05-28-2016, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Personally i dont see it as a big deal. The DX9 has a throttle cut switch which when activated disables the throttle. The only difference between that and your 'logic switch' (which i've never seen on any Tx FWIW) is that you dont need to open then close the throttle to get the motor running.
But the DX9 switch still works as a safety switch, as long as it's set to it's 'safe' position the motor won't run.
I was with you and always just relied on the switch ... flick On to disable before powering up model ... flick Off to enable throttle to fly.

Then I had a couple of mishaps where that switch alone was not enough to provide safety ... I caught the switch and throttle stick moved ... motor started up. Luckily the incidents were harmless and no injuries etc.

The reason for the Logic switch mix is to ensure that even if Throt Cut switch gets knocked .... you need to do a 'manouevre' with the throttle stick to get it to activate. Its only a flick up and back to idle and then she activates. No big deal - but a massive difference in safety.

Sorry but having had the typical Throt Cut switch alone mishaps - I am now not a user of it alone.

Taranis, 9x, 9xr ... and any other OpenTx / er9x FW radio has this added safety option ... and I am really surprised if no other has it ...

Forgot to add that on power up ... it defaults to no throttle so you have to flick switch and throttle stick to activate throttle. Added safety. So no more throt cut switch forgotten and unexpected start-ups ...

What's that old expression ? Use it or Lose it ? Could be fingers ... eyes ...

Nigel
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Old 05-28-2016, 02:26 PM
  #13  
stanz358
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Yeah as mentioned, I thinks it's funny they have a flap and gear warning available but a safety feature like throttle safety switch not. I think one would be able to tell if their gear was up while sitting on the runway waiting to take off . LOL. Maybe they'll incorporate it in a future firmware update. I sometimes wonder if those programming this software are fliers
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Old 05-28-2016, 03:10 PM
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Spektrum I know have fliers who report back ... Andy over on RCG is one. So I assume they do update / modify according to flyers. But we all want different things with our gear so that can get compromised very easily.

OpenTx and er9x are not products of radio manufacturers but by fliers / users themselves. People who have ability to write code as well as the love of RC ... But again ... individual likes / dislikes and also comprehension of command is likely to get compromised no matter how hard you try to accommodate all. Luckily - such open source people are driving manufacturers to re-evaluate their products and ways of interacting with users.

Throttle cut ... I never thought much about it until those incidents and then Julian offering a solution to stop it happening. It works. And like I say - its a pity if others don't allow similar on their radios. A simple throt cut switch is fine 99.9% of the time ... but boy when you forget or just knock the radio - the results could be terrible.

When I showed on flight line - I got similar reaction as per JPF ... why ? But I then started to see others on that flight line adding the logic switch to their models.

Nigel
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Old 05-28-2016, 03:27 PM
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stanz358
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I understand that they must get hundreds of requests, suggestions for features. But I really think safety enhancements should rise to the top. With this hobby becoming so popular and it seems under closer scrutiny, whatever can be done to promote safety would benefit us all.
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Old 05-28-2016, 04:07 PM
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Nigel,

Yes, the switch idea does seem like a useful 'just to be sure' safety measure... But it's not going to help Stanz358 because he doesnt have it available.

The problem can of course be avoided if you simply follow good safe practice. Just avoid knocking the throttle stick! Most of these 'knocks' occur when the Tx is being carried swinging from it's neck strap or you just get sloppy in handling the Tx. Trying to carry both the (powered up) plane and the Tx is a big no-no.

Flying big helis has made me a lot mare careful about how i treat a powered up model.
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Old 05-28-2016, 06:16 PM
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Stanz......good to hear you got something rigged that serves your current need.

Some pretty good responses came around.......you'd think the technology implemented in Spektrum and Futaba type multi-rotor throttle-cut/arming/activation/ systems would carry over to fixed wing. But like stated, so many personal preferences desired would be difficult to please every individual need/want.........at least the newer TX programming aspects allow for individual creativity and a little know-how.....
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Old 05-28-2016, 07:19 PM
  #18  
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Yeah I'm in a pretty good routine but that feature would be nice for the day when Murphy's Law sneaks up you. Funny how these threads seem to take on a life of their own sometime. But it's good to hear others ideas views etc. Thanks again everyone for the input
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by stanz358 View Post
I understand that they must get hundreds of requests, suggestions for features. But I really think safety enhancements should rise to the top. With this hobby becoming so popular and it seems under closer scrutiny, whatever can be done to promote safety would benefit us all.
Yes, that's correct. One of my duties on the forums is to capture good ideas (not just from Spektrum threads ) and store them in the database.

Safety features do indeed have more priority than others. Only those that are true safety improvements would continue to rise in priority.

It's a tough call sometimes. What some people think improves safety may actually hinder it. Sometimes things that appear safety-neutral turn out to be quite important. That's why we have a team that evaluates the ideas.

Andy

Nigel - you need to look at "Preflight Checklist" stuff and "Warnings."
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:43 PM
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yea, I guess I'm sloppy with my Taranis and the ability to have a throttle cut that once active the throttle does NOT become active again unless the idle = off AND the throttle is at 0%...electronics, got to love them.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:51 PM
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You can do the same with Spektrum.

Andy
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Old 06-11-2016, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AndyKunz View Post
Yes, that's correct. One of my duties on the forums is to capture good ideas (not just from Spektrum threads ) and store them in the database.

Safety features do indeed have more priority than others. Only those that are true safety improvements would continue to rise in priority.

It's a tough call sometimes. What some people think improves safety may actually hinder it. Sometimes things that appear safety-neutral turn out to be quite important. That's why we have a team that evaluates the ideas.

Andy

Nigel - you need to look at "Preflight Checklist" stuff and "Warnings."
Andy - preflight is a habit I have and also been there, got the tee-shirt. I would also think I've been RC'g more years than you ? Not being rude or smart there - just saying that I reckon I've seen most accidents that can happen ..... grown up with radios changing over the years from simple bang bang to today's multi functional computer based.

The simple throttle cut alone switch is good but only halfway to being a real safety measure. I suggest that you look at the logic switch idea and then come back to me ... for one addition to the throttle cut command - you avoid all consequences of an accidental knock of the throt cut switch.

Andy - have you never had an accidental knock of the throt cut switch ?

Nigel
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Old 06-11-2016, 08:31 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by formontoya View Post
yea, I guess I'm sloppy with my Taranis and the ability to have a throttle cut that once active the throttle does NOT become active again unless the idle = off AND the throttle is at 0%...electronics, got to love them.
That's typical throt cut but you have another step you can put - throttle cut with the logic switch ....
You flick off the throt cut switch, move stick up to max, then back to idle - throttle is now active.

That simple addition makes a world of difference to one of the safety aspects of our modern radios.

I apologise to people - but having had the straight throt cut knocked and throttle act ... I am a dedicated convert to the logic switch version.

Nigel
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Old 06-11-2016, 12:00 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Andy - preflight is a habit I have and also been there, got the tee-shirt. I would also think I've been RC'g more years than you ?
Probably. I've only been in RC since about 1973, with the first mods to my World Engines 6 about 1977.

Andy - have you never had an accidental knock of the throt cut switch ?
No.

Andy
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Old 06-11-2016, 12:45 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by AndyKunz View Post
Probably. I've only been in RC since about 1973, with the first mods to my World Engines 6 about 1977.



No.

Andy
Actually you surprised me there ... I expected later entrance. I beat you by about 5+ years ... as my Brother left and I had no-one to hold the CL model while picking up lines. I then went RC with some really awful 'pray as you go' gear !!

Second surprise is not having knocked the Throt Cut switch ... that explains why you are not so hot for the extra safety measure.
But when it happens to you ... and it will .... then you'll appreciate what I'm on about.

I have a model that has a gouge in one wing ... filled of course now ... that was a prop that model shot forward and buried prop into when thro cut switch was knocked and throt stick moved ...

I hope you don't have it happen ...

Nigel
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