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Calling all Skimmerphiles!

Old 03-10-2015, 01:58 AM
  #26  
Larry3215
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By the way, I said this before, the Hyperion motors are very nice motors. That one I linked to is on sale for a stupid low price, so dont discount it. Im running a Hyperion motor in my Supra now.

Im thinking I may order that one on sale as a backup for my Bubble dancer if I ever kill the Hacker
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Old 03-10-2015, 03:20 AM
  #27  
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Folding prop, definitely! Thanks for the model numbers. I wasn't berating Hyperion, I just want to keep all options open. 200 watts total comes out at about 73 W/lb. (Assuming the heavier 44oz. AUW), so that's just about what the AXi would give me, but with 8mm more room to play with. That will make it a lot easier getting my right/down thrust position right.

One last Q on the Hyperion: Can that motor shaft be re-positioned? 11MM is kinda short (7 is even worse!) considering it's may have to reach through two sheets of lite ply.

Last edited by FlyWheel; 03-10-2015 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 03-10-2015, 06:19 AM
  #28  
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Yup, you can slide it either way depending on your mounting option. The usual set screws.

Here is the data sheet for the Hyperion

http://www.hyperion-world.com/dn/zs/zs22.htm

and prop test data

http://media.hyperion.hk/dn/zs/ZS22propdata.pdf
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Old 03-11-2015, 12:39 AM
  #29  
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OK, I hope you're right, and that there are instructions on how to do this included with the motor, because the "Hype" is starting to look the better choice. I could use the threaded adaptor if I really need to, but I like the option to use the straight shaft, as the folding prop with it's spinner is simple to remove when I do. Using the threaded adaptor and a nut, which I can loosen only after I remove the front of the spinner...not so much.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I opened the package of the receivers and crystals I ordered (via Amazon) from Hobby Wireless in San Antonio TX, and it turns out they only sent me ONE Berg7P! I ordered two, and according to the invoice they had received the order for two and I paid for two! So I went to my Amazon account and sent an E-mail to the seller to inform them of this fact. Don't worry, I was polite.

Well, I wasn't rude, but I was to the point.

We'll see.

Last edited by FlyWheel; 03-11-2015 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 03-11-2015, 02:51 PM
  #30  
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Thumbs up Thanks for y'alls help!

I finally decided on the Hyperion HP-Zs2213-22. It's not as powerful as even the lowest Axi I had posted, but it should certainly be good enough for the coolliner E-glider I'm planning to build. It's also smaller (28MM vs. 35MM) and the resulting plane will be even lighter. Which is better for a glider!

Sorry Larry, but I couldn't get the $16 one you lead me to as their payment page kept shutting down my browsers. I tried four times, but neither Explorer nor Chrome could deal with it so I got one from National Hobbies instead. I also ordered a Jeti 30A ESC from Esprit. Again, 30 amps is probably more than this Hype will ever pull, but I figured better safe...

Best result I got from MotoCalc on this motor was from 3 cells and a 10x5 prop (I can also use a 10x6 if that's not enough). I can get those from my (NS)LHS

Originally Posted by MotoCalc (abridged opinion)
Airframe: Skimmer 600; 532sq.in; 32oz (guesstimated) RTF; 8.7oz/sq.ft
Motor: Hyperion Zs2213-22; 862rpm/V
Battery: 3 cell Lithium
Prop; 10x5 direct drive.
Stats: 59 W/lb in; 48 W/lb out; 15mph stall; 19mph opt @ 68% (29:41, 73F); 23mph level @ 80% (22:38, 76F); 626ft/min @ 21.7

Power System Notes:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (9.6A) falls approximately between the motor's maximum efficiency current (6.4A) and its current at theoretical maximum output (44.4A), thus making effective use of the motor.

Possible Aerodynamic Problems:

The static pitch speed (34mph) is less than 2.5 times the stall speed (15mph), which may result in reduced performance at typical flying speeds and a low maximum speed. This situation is usually acceptable for an electric sailplane or other slow-flying model.
Pitch speed can be increased by using a higher pitched and/or smaller diameter propeller, a higher cell count, or some combination of these methods.

Aerodynamic Notes:

With a wing loading of 8.7oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have very sedate flying characteristics. It will be suitable for relaxed flying, in calm or very light wind conditions.
The static thrust (23.5oz) to weight (32oz) ratio is 0.73:1, which will result in very short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and steep climb-outs.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (11.4oz) to weight (32oz) ratio is 0.36:1, which will give strong climbs and rapid acceleration. This model will most likely readily loop from level flight, and have sufficient in-flight thrust for many aerobatic maneuvers.
SO... I have my motor, my ESC, battery, prop, receiver and servos. All before I even started building. That's a first for me!

Last edited by FlyWheel; 03-11-2015 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 03-11-2015, 06:09 PM
  #31  
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Smile Got a reply from Hobby Wireless!

It looks like I'm going to get my second receiver after all!

Originally Posted by Hobby Wireless
Order ID XXXXXXXXXXXXXX:
2 of 7CH BERG RX W/VERT PIN, 010-0042-00 [ASIN: B000K2EX24]

------------- Begin message -------------

Hello Christain, we apologize for the error. Shipping will send the Berg 7p today.

--- Original message ---

Order ID XXXXXXXXXXXXXX:
2 of 7CH BERG RX W/VERT PIN, XXXX [ASIN: B000K2EX24]

------------- Begin message -------------

Hello.

I ordered 3 Berg4L and 2 Berg 7P 72MHz receivers. I received all three of the 4 channel receivers, however I only received ONE of the TWO 7Ps that I ordered (and paid for, according to the invoice).

I would appreciate it if you could send me my second 7P receiver.

Order: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Items:

2 of 7CH BERG RX W/VERT PIN, 010-0042-00
Order: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Items: 2 of 7CH BERG RX W/VERT PIN, 010-0042-00




------------- End message -------------
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Old 03-11-2015, 11:31 PM
  #32  
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alright then......,you have all the necessities to build this bird. now for the fun part of putting glue to the balsa.. i'v been following along and am looking forward to your posting pictures of how you'll electrify this skimmer. i will add it's a fun build modified or not.

are you doing any wing mods? if you do,it may require using less dihedral for performance....depends on what you are thinking of doing.
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Old 03-12-2015, 04:38 AM
  #33  
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Not all the parts, Some are still "in the mail" others are in the hobby shop waiting for me to get my hands on them. I just know everything I will NEED at this point.

This plane is already electrified from the designer's draftboard, I'm not changing that (just the type of motor/battery pack). And yes, there is a wing mod. Actually two: I'm taking the single piece 70" dihedral and turning it into two 35" pieces. Also I am hooking servos up to the tapered TE and using them for reflex/camber control.

Other than that, she'll be pretty much stock.
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Old 03-12-2015, 08:50 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by FlyWheel View Post
I finally decided on the Hyperion HP-Zs2213-22. It's not as powerful as even the lowest Axi I had posted, but it should certainly be good enough for the coolliner E-glider I'm planning to build. It's also smaller (28MM vs. 35MM) and the resulting plane will be even lighter. Which is better for a glider!

Sorry Larry, but I couldn't get the $16 one you lead me to as their payment page kept shutting down my browsers. I tried four times, but neither Explorer nor Chrome could deal with it so I got one from National Hobbies instead. I also ordered a Jeti 30A ESC from Esprit. Again, 30 amps is probably more than this Hype will ever pull, but I figured better safe...

Best result I got from MotoCalc on this motor was from 3 cells and a 10x5 prop (I can also use a 10x6 if that's not enough). I can get those from my (NS)LHS



SO... I have my motor, my ESC, battery, prop, receiver and servos. All before I even started building. That's a first for me!
MotoCalc is way off on that. You're going to need at least an 11x6 minimum or you will have an anemic climb. I really think you are going to need a 12x6 or 13x4 (depending on your battery packs) to be happy.

That prediction is for a conventional model thats assumed to climb normally and NOT be hand launched. Also, 600 some feet per minute is less than half the climb rate Im getting on my Bubble Dancer. Thats a fairly slow climb and your going to need to launch dead level and build up speed first.

That small prop will give you much less thrust - which may make hand launching tricky and possibly dangerous if you arent careful and fast on the sticks.

Dont get me wrong - it will work. Its just going to be marginal.

Ive flown sailplanes on as little as 20 watts/pound - but its nothing like normal RC flying.

At low power levels, you are flying very much "on the wing" and you cannot count on power to save you. I doubt very much if you have any flying time at that low a power loading. No conventional models are set up that way, so most everyone is used to flying models with gobs of excess power available.

With that small a prop and that low a power loading you will not have much - if any - excess power/thrust to play with. Its going to require you to maintain sufficient air speed at all times to be safe.

Imagine hand launching one of your heavy, fast models with the throttle stuck at 1/4 and you will have an idea what it might be like
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Old 03-13-2015, 04:46 AM
  #35  
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OK, I ran those through and for a 10 X 6 and I got:
Possible Aerodynamic Problems:

The static pitch speed (40mph) is within the range of approximately 2.5 to 3 times the model's stall speed (15mph), which is considered ideal for good performance.

Aerodynamic Notes:

With a wing loading of 8.7oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have very sedate flying characteristics. It will be suitable for relaxed flying, in calm or very light wind conditions.
The static thrust (23.4oz) to weight (32oz) ratio is 0.73:1, which will result in very short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and steep climb-outs.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (14.4oz) to weight (32oz) ratio is 0.45:1, which will give steep climbs and excellent acceleration. This model should be able to do consecutive loops, and has sufficient in-flight thrust for almost any aerobatic maneuver.
An 11 X 6 gave me this:
Possible Aerodynamic Problems:

The static pitch speed (37mph) is less than 2.5 times the stall speed (16mph), which may result in reduced performance at typical flying speeds and a low maximum speed. This situation is usually acceptable for an electric sailplane or other slow-flying model.
Pitch speed can be increased by using a higher pitched and/or smaller diameter propeller, a higher cell count, or some combination of these methods.

Aerodynamic Notes:

With a wing loading of 9.9oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have very sedate flying characteristics. It will be suitable for relaxed flying, in calm or very light wind conditions.
The static thrust (29.7oz) to weight (36.7oz) ratio is 0.81:1, which will result in very short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and steep climb-outs.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (17.5oz) to weight (36.7oz) ratio is 0.48:1, which will give steep climbs and excellent acceleration. This model should be able to do consecutive loops, and has sufficient in-flight thrust for almost any aerobatic maneuver.
So it appears that the 11 X 6 will give me my best results with this motor. Not as fast as the 10 X 6, but better thrust (ST of 0.8:1 as opposed to 0.7:1). Which is what I want; better climbing, not speed. And both are better than the 10 X 5.

And BTW 11 X 6 is the maximum not the minimum. Anything larger and the motor couldn't handle it or I risk overheating. (even with a 12 X 4). Good thing I hadn't bought the prop yet!






(Remember, you recommended this motor!)
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Old 03-13-2015, 05:52 PM
  #36  
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Once again MotoCalc is wrong about that

MotoCalc is thinking normal flight conditions with sustained motor runs - not at all how you fly a powered sailplane.

You're only going to be running the motor for less than 30 seconds at a time with long cooling periods in between.

Re-read the motor specs from Hyperion and the prop test data. The motor is rated for 21 amps in short bursts and thats a conservative rating.

Look at the prop test data and you will see test data for a 13x6 prop and its only pulling 19 amps. Thats going to be safe in a motor glider situation.

An 11x6 will still be marginal depending on your final weight and battery quality. Hyperions tests show around 180 watts on the 11x6 (vrs 240 for the 13x6.5) but thats assuming decent packs that can hold a pretty good voltage under load.

This is just my opinion of course, but I think you could use some more salt when your looking at those MotoCalc predictions

If you want to stay with a smaller prop, then the 2213-18 would be a better choice with its higher kV and higher amp rating.

If I get one of the 2213-22's I will be running a 13x6
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Old 03-13-2015, 07:34 PM
  #37  
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Well then again I ask this question: IS there a motor selection software that's more accurate/dependabe than MotoCalc (or at least more up to date)? Especially when dealing with e-gliders and casual flyers? Preferably one that I can download to my computer.

What are you using to get your motor/prop size data? And what constitutes a "decent pack"? I've already ordered - strike that - recieved the Zs2213-22.

Last edited by FlyWheel; 03-13-2015 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:05 PM
  #38  
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And MotoCalc knows it's a glider, that is one of the first parameters I plug into it.

Looking at the PDF it just occurred to me that all the data given assume either an APC-E (electric) or APC-SF (Slow Fly) prop. These are both standard props, I'm using a folder. How will that effect the numbers?




Edit: maybe I should have stuck with the AXi...

Last edited by FlyWheel; 03-13-2015 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:13 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by FlyWheel View Post
Well then again I ask this question: IS there a motor selection software that's more accurate/dependabe than MotoCalc (or at least more up to date)? Especially when dealing with e-gliders and casual flyers? Preferably one that I can download to my computer.

What are you using to get your motor/prop size data? And what constitutes a "decent pack"? I've already ordered - strike that - recieved the Zs2213-22.
You might try the demo version of Ecalc and see what you think. Lots of people think its at leas as good, if not better than, motocalc.

http://www.ecalc.ch/indexcalc.htm

Keep in mind though that NONE of these calc programs are designed for limited motor run situations - as in a typical e-sailplane. They assume your going to be using the motor in a normal fashion - as in typical flying - with lots of constant throttle usage.

In sailplane situations the motor run is "limited" which allows you to ignore a lot of the normal cooling issues and, to some degree, efficiency issues. So we get to push the motors well beyond where the calc programs think is safe.

I rarely use these programs any more. I can usually guess performance pretty close based on my (too many) years of past experience. If I know the motor kV is reasonably accurate, then I can look up my old notes and know how the motor will perform on various packs and props.

But then, I ALWAYS verify actual performance with a watt meter on the bench before the first flight. I also log my firs several flights at least to get good in-air numbers.

You never know if the motor you received actually has the advertized kV unless you test it. Same thing with props. Sometimes the advertized pitch is wrong or off quite a bit. On top of that, battery performance is all over the place depending on the packs age and quality, C rating, etc.

Of course, name brand stuff tends to be much better in that regard than the knock off/clone stuff.

As far as good packs - you want packs that have a low Ir under load (that means low voltage drop under load) and ideally a long lifetime where that low Ir stays low over time.

That usually means name brand packs. My first choice is ThunderPower and my second is Hyperion. Ive used every brand out there since lipos first came out and those two consistently out perform the others on both fronts - often by huge margins. I dont mind paying more because when you do the math, the better packs last long enough to get the cost per flight to be the same or even lower then buying cheap packs that die early.

For sailplanes that draw less than around 50-55 amps at peak, the best packs - hands down - are the TP 850 70C packs. Nothing else on the market even comes close to delivering the power under load at that low a weight and small size.

The best part is they get better over time. I have two packs Ive been using to fly all my sailplanes in contests and sport flying. They are coming up on two years old now and still perform almost as new. I must have 200+ flights on those packs - most of them under stressful contest conditions with hi-rate charges and deep discharges. I have never gotten more than 75 flights out of cheap packs - especially when pushed.


Originally Posted by FlyWheel View Post
And MotoCalc knows it's a glider, that is one of the first parameters I plug into it.

Looking at the PDF it just occurred to me that all the data given assume either an APC-E (electric) or APC-SF (Slow Fly) prop. These are both standard props, I'm using a folder. How will that effect the numbers?


Edit: maybe I should have stuck with the AXi...
The ACP props are kind of the "standard" in RC.

In my experience folders can vary a lot in performance and amp draw. Again, stick to the good stuff - Graupner, Aeronaut, etc. If they are cheap - beware. Especially Hobby King folders. They can self destruct in the air for no reason.

Folders are usually in the same ballpark as the equivalent APC, BUT there are potential issues with folders that can make comparison difficult or even impossible.

Mostly it has to do with the yoke you attach the blades to. Yokes can be any width depending on how wide your fuse is. You can get yokes from 25mm long to 75mm long. The problem is that length of the yoke changes the effective diameter of the prop. Increasing diameter can change motor amp draw by a huge margine. Power used goes up as the 4th power of diameter, so even small changes in yoke length can make large changes in power used.

Secondly, yokes can have a twist in them. That twist changes the effective pitch - which again changes power draw. Twist doesnt effect power nearly as much as diameter though, so dont worry about it so much. That twist can also allow the blades to sit flatter on the fuse for less drag. Thats not really a worry until you get into real hi performance sailplanes.

Bottom line is - you make your best guess up front - then test on the bench and in the air.

Based on my personal experience with similar motors and TP packs and Graupner and Aeronaut props on many different sailplanes over many years - go with a 12x6 to start and test it to see what you have in your specific situation
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:18 PM
  #40  
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I should point out some things about motocalc and other prediction software. NONE of them are perfect - and they never will be.

There are too many variables. No two motors are ever alike. If you order three motors of the exact same brand and size and kV from the same dealer - they will all have slightly different kV and Io and Ir values. I have tested off brands that had HUGE differences on the order of one motor with a kV of 800 and the next with a kV of 1500. Pure lack of QC and no ethics or care in marketing.

Even name brands can vary as much as 10% or a little more from one motor to the next.

Props are the same way but usually not as large a variation except in the cheap stuff. On the other hand, an APC 12x6 will not perform the same as any other brand of 12x6.

ESC;s are another place where quality makes a significant difference - mostly in the resistance in the FETs and the sync software. Both of which can have a significant effect on actual amp draw and rpm. I only use Castle controllers.

Then of course there are batteries. Changing from a crap pack to a hi quality pack can sometime double your amp draw.

To me, its a wonder these calc programs even come close
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:24 PM
  #41  
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By the way - I went through the same thing you are going through with MotoCalc when I first got into electrics back in the stone ages

I have a little bit of an engineering back ground, so the formulas and theory behind MotoCalc really intrigued me.

I was horrified and very disapointed after I got my first WattMeter and could see how far off the calculations and theory sometimes were from the real world.

Very disappointing.
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:32 PM
  #42  
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Remember one other thing - ALL of my advice is based on one very large and critical assumption.

Im assuming you will never, ever run the motor for more than 30 seconds at a time AND that you will then soar around for several minutes with the motor OFF.

If you dont do that - then you do run the risk of burning up the motor.
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:55 PM
  #43  
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My HS stocks AeroNaut blades, so that's the brand I would get, They're a trusted name. And I never buy anything from Hobby King...I've heard that even some of the name brands they carry are actually lower quality versions. And yes, I am very familiar with the horror stories about their auto-disintegrative props.

After looking at the tech-sheet/PDF from Hyperion 12-6 was what I was considering. The loads listed for that motor/prop on a three cell battery are right at the top of (or just barely over) the 'nominal' ranges for both wattage and amperage. so even for continued flight I wouldn't be traumatizing the motor (well, not by too much, at least ). And I always do a motor test with my trusty WhattMeter in place before installing anything in the plane.

As for the spinner, the plans the nose of this bird call for a 1.5" spinner, although as small as this motor is, as well as mounting it bell forward I may be able to sand the nose down enough to get away with something even smaller. And the yoke will not be extending any more than is absolutely necessary to allow the blades to lie 'flat' against the fuselage. The way I see it, tighter the nose the easier it will slip through the air. Gliders are, all about drag. Or rather lack thereof.
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Old 03-14-2015, 05:51 PM
  #44  
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Sounds like a plan

Good luck and keep us posted!
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Old 03-15-2015, 03:04 AM
  #45  
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My ESC came in yesterday (along with the 'missing' Berg 7P ). So all I need now is a folding prop and other miscellaneous bits of hardware. I spent much of the day cleaning out the shop and setting my build table back up. I will be visiting the HS on Monday and hopefully they will have everything. Last time I was there they were out a couple of items I'm planning to use in the construction.

I also want to build one of those adjustable 'torqueable' dihedral tables I've seen some builders using so I can put together the wing sections with the recommended washout already built in rather than stressing the covering in order to hold the correct twist. I'm also going to stop by Staples and see if they can give me some 1:1 reproductions of the plan. That way I'm not cutting up the original.

Soon, people, Soon.
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Old 03-15-2015, 01:12 PM
  #46  
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This one is handy, & easy to
build.

I believe you could build it with
some twist for washout?
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Old 03-15-2015, 01:52 PM
  #47  
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RR and i think alike....lol

you will be building the wing flat on the board and thats how you want the wing halves to be when joined with the dihedral.

i remember maiden day for my skimmer,a fellow pilot pointed out my wing had slight warp but not enough to keep it from flying. to this day i still don't see what he saw,but i'v tightened the film covering every year so who knows... always look to keep the wings straight when done.

you won't need washout. also it's very easy to get the wing halves joined without building a dihedral jig board. but if your going to build a lot it might be fun to have in the workshop.

flywheel,i used CA thin,med,and thick throughout the whole build. what glue are you planing on using?



stu
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Old 03-16-2015, 01:16 AM
  #48  
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Aliphatic (TiteBond II). I like having more than 10 seconds to measure, measure again, test fit, re-measure and final fit just to be sure before the glue dries/cures.

The fixture I saw have one board mounted by bolts above a base board another so it could be torqued, as well as set at an angle. I have an idea in my head of how it was built, but my head isn't what it used to be.
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Old 03-16-2015, 02:01 AM
  #49  
tobydogs
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i can't find my skimmer build manuel,how does it describe setting washout on the wing? could you possible take a picture of that section of the instructions. i'm wondering if i missed something in my build.
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:15 AM
  #50  
FlyWheel
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Originally Posted by tobydogs View Post
i can't find my skimmer build manuel,how does it describe setting washout on the wing? could you possible take a picture of that section of the instructions. i'm wondering if i missed something in my build.
I'm not sure it was from (or in) your build thread. I'm sure I'll find it.
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