earthsciteach

Have you guys seen the AR drones that are controlled by an iphone, ipad or laptop?

http://ardrone.parrot.com/parrot-ar-drone/usa/

I just found these today. I wonder how long (doubt very) it will be until that technology is extended to all of the RC world. I also wonder how long it will take for the government to crack down on it due to possible nefarious applications.

It creates its own wifi connection to your Mac product. You fly it as a drone, through video cameras mounted horizontally and vertically. Can even battle with another one as a video game. Pretty cool, crazy stuff!

Rockin Robbins

My best guess at this point would be that cell phones don't have the subtlety you need to control a real plane. A video game can have the controls dumbed down so that you have a chance. A real plane? Just look at the difference between the original equipment controllers for the Champ and then linking up a DX5e. The original controller is many times better than an iPhone, but still there is a night and day contrast.

This is obviously a video game. Transferring to real life RC plane capability is a whole different thing. Either the controller has to get a lot better or the plane needs to have some pretty good intelligence built in to compensate for inadequate control. I predict both "fly by wire" intelligent airframes and better controllers for cell phones and the like.

These guys are going to threaten our hobby yet.

earthsciteach

I don't know the published range, but it can also be flown from a joystick plugged into a laptop. That would be subtle enough to control an RC airplane from a first person view. I suspect that the range of the AR drone is very limited, but even a doofus like me can, in theory anyway, think of ways to increase that. How about using a second aircraft as a relay? Take it up a few hundred feet or more and have it relay signals to a second RC piloted from a first person point of view. Anyway, I do see how it can threaten our hobby. But, I'd still like to try that for myself!

Rockin Robbins

The problem is safety. When flying a real airplane you are carefully trained to continuously scan 360º in all three axes to make sure your airspace is clear and that you will not have a violent meeting in the sky with someone or something.

With a remotely piloted drone that just isn't possible. You think you can see but you are flying mostly blind. Therefore you are a menace to yourself and others. Some of those others are personally piloting real airplanes. Some of those others are people on the ground.

If this thing becomes real easy and relatively inexpensive to do, all kinds of idiots are going to be doing it. And since the tried and true method of government enforcement of all rules is "punish the innocent. That always works," guess what the predictable result of this foolishness is going to be?

You guessed it: the idiots will remain flying unhindered and our safe radio control practices will no longer be allowed.

For that reason I hope that reason takes over the process and precludes any of this from taking place. Manufacturers who value their business need to ensure that any remote piloted vehicle range does not exceed a half mile.
Even that is not sufficient to ensure that pilots don't leave line of sight range, but at least it would be defensibly responsible.

I see dead companies, people and hobbies if this doesn't remain a video game~!

earthsciteach

Yep, agreed. Too many bad applications of this technology, from peeping toms to those with destructive intentions. Although, I still think it is pretty interesting, in concept.

Figure.N9ne

this isn't a video game. the parrot AR drone is a real quadcopter controlled by an iPhone or iPod touch. We fly one at my field with a high power router hooked up to a power inverted

Figure.N9ne

FPV piloting has been going on for ages, and it's actually pretty cheap nowadays. A basic setup costs a few hundred dollars. I've flown one with about a 10 mile range once (obviously not a cheap setup). With a gyro camera setup you have as much visibility, if not more than the typical ultralight or experimental plane. In case of radio problems, the plane had self stabilization, and a return to base gps setup. This particular setup and pilot has several thousand hours of FPV flying experience with no problems.

Rockin Robbins

Again, FPV out of sight without a line of sight spotter is unsafe. History shows that when a very few idiots get hurt or hurt somebody a whole sport or hobby becomes unavailable to all the sensible ones among us. Have a swimming pool? Have a friend with a swimming pool? They don't and can't install a diving board any more can they?

Millions of us used diving boards safely for dozens of years. We had a ton of fun. And it was VERY safe, safer than bicycle riding or jumping on a trampoline. But....

And now there are no diving boards. If FPV gets a little out of line with just a handful of people our hobby is in danger. Don't believe it? Count the diving boards on your street, or your neighborhood, or town or state for that matter. That's how many RC planes you could see in ten years if this thing is mishandled.

There is no way with a gyro camera or anything short of a ground based radar unit that you can get the visibility a human eye on a neck gives. First of all, you have about a 180º field of view, all at one time! No camera can give you that without making everything in the field of view so small it wouldn't matter.

The eye has resolution that no camera and set of goggles can replicate, along with motion and color discrimination that no electronic system can get within miles of. No, you CANNOT have even a tenth of the visibility of a real pilot in any plane. Not only that but the brain of the real pilot instantly correlates the image with a mental picture of the surroundings and progressively builds a simultaneous picture of the space around. There is no way to get that with a camera on any kind of mount.

Trying to equate any FPV plane's safety with that of a real plane is just what will cost us our hobby. Maybe knitting is next.

The ONLY way FPV can be safe is to have an observer not flying the plane in constant sight of the plane being flown. Flying the things out of sight is a 100% guarantee of tragedy. The only question remaining to be asked is when I can no longer fly my plane because you refused to listen to reason.

Yeah, so it's cheap to cost all of us our hobby. And we're supposed to be happy for that? Diving boards were pretty affordable too.

kenchiroalpha

Hi
Ah this controversy once again
Check this thread and in particular my last posting on the rules governing FPV RC
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...t=parrot+drone
Take care
Yours Hank

Figure.N9ne

You're entitled to your opinion regardless of how little I agree with it. I'm just letting you know fpv is very common and affordable, it's not something that will happen someday, but it's happening today. and the ar drone is not a video game but a real quadcopter available at any mall across America.

I do think you should try something before you completely bash it based solely on what you perceive to be reality.

MadMonkey

EVERYBODY PANIC!!

Rockin Robbins

Reality is that I am not permitted to have a diving board on my swimming pool, although I am allowed to ride a motorcycle without a helmet.

Reality is that the AMA has the exact point of miew that I do. Their guidelines allow FPV only in line of sight with an observer watching the plane at all times.

Reality is that a very few idiots will insist on their right to fly their FPV planes out of direct line of sight over interesting targets like cities, bridges, crowds of people, in airspace where private and commercial airplanes fly, and that these idiots will insist it is perfectly safe even after something very bad happens. it is not that they cannot see, it is that they WILL not see. You see, they feel very entitled, just like most criminals and with much the same mindset.

No panic needs to take place, just preparation to make the forseeable consequences so costly that no fool will attempt what all of us know will end up costing us our hobby. Just like the idiots in Tampa who flew a large helicopter in a public park full of people and injured a couple of girls, the consequences have to be made so grave and the people caught need to be made such an example that nobody would dare to repeat the mistake.

That means long jail terms and punitive damages they can never pay back with no bankruptcy allowed. When the foreseeable happens the perps must be entirely and completely ruined. It's them or us, just like with the diving boards where WE were completely ruined.

kenchiroalpha

Hi
The manufacturers differ in that respect as they advertise the AR DRONE as a FLYING VIDEO GAME
Its right in the ad
http://ardrone.parrot.com/parrot-ar-drone/usa/
And that was there intent all along as ive been following this one since it was in the concept phase a few years back
Take care dear friend
Yours Hank

kyleservicetech

Just what our hobby needs, a few "idiots" that do unsafe things, then go on to the next hobby. Then, when those unsafe things hit the newspaper, those that really are into the Radio Control model hobby and follow all the rules on safety and what ever, all suffer from that.

Figure.N9ne

and some how RC helicopters are still legal. The fact you didn't realize that the AR drone with more than just pixels tells me that you haven't done enough research into FPV flying to have an educated opinion on the matter, you're just speculating based on other things, such as diving boards which are not at all related.

Figure.N9ne

I understand that Hank, but Rockin Robbin is referring to "real planes" versus a "video game" when the fact is that the word video game is just marketing jargon for a very real quadcopter. It's not just pixels on a screen.

earthsciteach

It all comes down to the responsibility of the user. FPV technology seems pretty interesting, but should not be used in a dangerous manner. For instance, if you fly your airplane using fpv, then you should be acutely aware of others that may be flying in your area. They should be aware of you, as well. Never fly out of line of sight. And use a spotter, too.

The interesting thing about the ipad/iphone controlled drone is that it REALLY opens up a can of worms. Cheap fpv? Seems so. I'd love to put a controller in my plane (that I can fly in solitude) and see what I could do with it. I'm sure the range is severely limited, which is a good thing. But, clever people could come up with a way to extend the range, and that could lead to some very dangerous situations, both unintended and intentional.

Just like guns, its only as safe as the person using it. I understand what Robbins is saying in that, this could lead to a very powerful system that is way too easily accessed by those without the knowledge to handle it safely. If that happens, we can all suffer, due to politicians creating regulations for a situation they really don't have an understanding of.

But, I'd like to think that someone, like myself, who would be responsible with this technology could use it. It all comes down to personal responsibility and good sense.

Rockin Robbins

So, Figure.N9ne, if this were a full-blown video game it would be bad, but since it is just real quadracopters, each with four electric motors swinging what? 10 or 11 inch props at only 7000 rpm or so we shouldn't be alarmed?

Sure, there's a place for this stuff, inside a controlled gymnasium, no people in a position to be hurt by these things and tight monitoring, but we know that's not how this would be used. [irony]It's just a "video game." No responsibility need be applied.

What do you predict the result of that ridiculous mindset will be? What portion of human flesh will be filleted by these flying meat cleavers? We in the hobby take for granted the extreme safety measures we take. The things we don't even think about would be totally foreign to the market these are aimed at: the FPV killers from Unreal Tournament and other similar games of pixellated bloodshed. Except here the action will not be pixels on a screen. That sounds real great to me. You're right. I'm concerned about nothing.

Darn! I thought it was just a video game and was concerned about the safety aspect of THAT. How bizarre was that? Glad you set me straight.[/irony]

I was born recently, but not yesterday.

kyleservicetech

Agreed:

But, just take a look at some of that stuff on you tube where people that have zero sense and no responsibility, put their videos on youtube to prove it.

Not just models, but just about anything, like some of those spud guns, bicycle riders, you name it.

Nitro Blast

Subscribed.... Please keep opinions and perspectives respectful to others.

starcad

Lets face it guys, there are I-D-10-T's in both camps. I recently watched a video on YouTube where a bunch of heli guys strapped Roman Candles to there aircraft ( hmmm, AMA violation?) and proceeded to try and shoot each other down. Fire hitting all over the place. So, yes there are a few in FPV but on the other hand there are a few that fly regular line of site. It really doesn't matter if the person that flies FPV or the regular R/C'er it will only take one. BTW, from the video looks like they had a great time starting fires.

Rockin Robbins

But this is something quite different from spontaneous disregard for all things safety by a few nuts. This is the marketing of such idiocy with all the honed tools of persuasion learned in the past 100 years of compelling advertising. And they're not selling iPhones, they're selling RC flying quadracopters with the real capacity to injure people. Are they putting any effort at all toward promoting responsible ownership? Are they promoting a learn to fly program? Do they teach the principles of flight? Do they encourage AMA membership and print the AMA safety guidelines? See for yourself. Count the safety violations.



Air battle! Fight! Augmented reality with missiles and guns! Who are they advertising to? What is the absolutely sure result of this foolishness? Note the open rotor design of the quadricopter--it has meat cleavers extending around everywhere! What happens when a 10-year old Ratchet & Clank maniac just launches one? Fillet of gamer anyone?


Why don't we just give the darling little 10 year olds the keys to a couple of cars and let 'em play demolition derby on a downtown street? Or a couple of loaded .32 autos so they can play bullet tag in the county park? (OH! They do that already.....)

earthsciteach

No doubt there will be some issues with these 'toys.' They do come with foam "bumpers" that guard the blades, which should be permanently attached. Saving grace is that this 'toy' costs $300 for one unit.

I'd like to see the receiver/controller on these, just to see how they work. Aside from the safety issues, it is pretty interesting technology.

Rockin Robbins

The ones in the New York Central Park video have no blade guards of any sort as they whiz inches from the hot dog vendor's head. FUN!!!

Figure.N9ne

You clearly have never seen the parrot AR drone. it does not have menacing 11 inch blades. They do not spin openly and unguarded, they come with a large foam piece that surrounds the blades. The range is a few hundred feet so, it's not going to crash into an airplane or a person on the other side of town, it's slow, docile, and self leveling so a rookie pilot wont be much of a danger with it. It was designed for indoor flight.

This thing outdoors isn't more dangerous than a large airhogs plane, and probably much less dangerous than a supercub. It's been available for a while now, and amazingly nobody has been maimed by one yet! Also, airhogs and supercubs also have not ruined this hobby for the rest of us. A super cub that can fly to greater heights and lose signal from the cheap 27mhz controller. It will then glide uncontrolled for a long distance which seems much more dangerous than a tiny quadcopter covered in foam that will self level when the short range of a couple of hundred feet is exceeded, and if it loses power falls straight down, instead of having a long unpredictable glide slope.

If they should ban they AR drone, then they should ban all park flyers and basically anything RC.