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New research on Lithium-Ion batteries

Old 05-07-2015, 09:49 PM
  #26  
Rockin Robbins
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Originally Posted by quorneng View Post
It pays to consider what those researchers were actually trying to do.
They were examining the physical processes that go on inside a Lithium battery during the course of a thermal runaway event.

They were not trying to demonstrate what happens when you seriously overheat a lithium battery - that is already well known!
That's true, but it's no fun to deal with rational thought. And the implication in the story was that Lithium chemistry batteries were not presently safe to use. No, that's not the researchers, but the slant of the story must be dealt with.

As Ed said, we tolerate much more dangerous items in our everyday lives. We learn how to handle them and then we aren't afraid of them any more. Every part of a potato plant is poisonous except for the potato itself. At one time tomatoes were called Hell's apples, because they were thought to produce death in minutes after a single bite. Gasoline is treated above. We use chemicals for cleaning and drain clearing that dissolve human flesh. Chlorine bleach plus household substances equals deadly gas. In sight of my house, people jump out of perfectly good airplanes for fun.

A substance is not safe or unsafe. How we handle it is safe or unsafe. Over several years, hobbyists have demonstrated that LiPo batteries can be very safely used in radio control planes.
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Old 06-03-2015, 09:01 AM
  #27  
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Cool Use a123...

a123 fires are NOT a possibility. Forget about safety measures...

1. Do charge a123 unattended.
2. Forget about proof container when charging...
3. Charge your a123 in your plane...
4. Leave your a123 in your plane...
5. Follow manufacturer guidelines for a123 and use a fast chargers...
6. Avoid total discharge... an investment for life
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Old 06-03-2015, 02:09 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by ramboman View Post
a123 fires are NOT a possibility. Forget about safety measures...
This is absolutely 100% INCORRECT. All battery packs "store" significant amounts of energy. All of them can start a fire, or start on fire. Try this outside your house on the driveway. Dead short a 4 cell a123 pack - I bet you get a pretty good fire.

You may say that isn't likely but we have to respect all battery packs. My ONLY battery fire was with NiCad cells. See my above post.
I got the fire put out quickly (thankfully) and was not in the air at the time - also thankfully.

Forgetting about battery safety is the poorest advice I have seen. All packs store great amounts of energy and can cause fires. Be vigilant and safe, when charging especially (again ALL battery types).

Mike
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:05 PM
  #29  
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Cool

Originally Posted by rcers View Post
This is absolutely 100% INCORRECT. All battery packs "store" significant amounts of energy. All of them can start a fire, or start on fire. Try this outside your house on the driveway. Dead short a 4 cell a123 pack - I bet you get a pretty good fire.

You may say that isn't likely but we have to respect all battery packs. My ONLY battery fire was with NiCad cells. See my above post.
I got the fire put out quickly (thankfully) and was not in the air at the time - also thankfully.

Forgetting about battery safety is the poorest advice I have seen. All packs store great amounts of energy and can cause fires. Be vigilant and safe, when charging especially (again ALL battery types).

Mike
Did you try ? The Nasa tried... I tried by accident... NO FIRE.
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:10 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by ramboman View Post
Did you try ? The Nasa tried... I tried by accident... NO FIRE.
All about energy storage my friend. ALL batteries store energy. That energy can be changed to another state - including fire.

As you recall a123 and equivalent cells have caught fire - laptops of recent years:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ns_with_li_ion
http://www.cnet.com/forums/discussio...y-fire-198735/
http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...st-explains-19

And EVEN MUCH bigger is the recent airline issues on the 787:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0JF35G20141202
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/11/travel...gation-report/
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/bu...laws.html?_r=0

Remember that grounded ALL 787's for a time.

SUPER bad advice to not mind batteries, in use, charging and "forgetting about safety measures". Just never smart.

Always think of a battery as a gas tank, full of energy that can be changed or converted from one form to another.

That is smart.

So no need for me to test. Laptops and airplanes have done that for me.

Mike

Last edited by rcers; 06-03-2015 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:33 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
All about energy storage my friend. ALL batteries store energy. That energy can be changed to another state - including fire.

SUPER bad advice to not mind batteries, in use, charging and "forgetting about safety measures". Just never smart.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75782
Always thhttp://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75782ink of a battery as a gas tank, full of energy that can be changed from one form to another.

That is smart.

As you recall a123 and equivalent cells have caught fire - laptops of recent years:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ns_with_li_ion
http://www.cnet.com/forums/discussio...y-fire-198735/
http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...st-explains-19

And EVEN MUCH bigger is the recent airline issues on the 787:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0JF35G20141202
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/11/travel...gation-report/
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/bu...laws.html?_r=0

Remember that grounded ALL 787's for a time.

So no need for me to test. Laptops and airplanes have done that for me.

Mike
Just look :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21iZVFHEZk

We are talking about LiFePO4 chemistry...
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:39 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by ramboman View Post
Just look :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21iZVFHEZk

We are talking about LiFePO4 chemistry...
ALL BATTERIES STORE ENERGY. That can be converted. You are wrong, sorry! Laptops have used LiFe packs for some time. It is just simple science and physics. Stored energy. All batteries can start a fire. Period. Some are better than others.

I can go all day on links too:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/29/bu...sla-fires.html Tesla fire here...



By the way you video shows quite a fire - contained, but none the less if you were breathing those toxic fumes you might not be doing so well.

Mike
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Old 06-03-2015, 04:01 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
ALL BATTERIES STORE ENERGY. That can be converted. You are wrong, sorry! Laptops have used LiFe packs for some time. It is just simple science and physics. Stored energy. All batteries can start a fire. Period. Some are better than others.

I can go all day on links too:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/29/bu...sla-fires.html Tesla fire here...



By the way you video shows quite a fire - contained, but none the less if you were breathing those toxic fumes you might not be doing so well.

Mike
That's ideology, not science, there is a big difference between chemistry of LiPo, LiIo, LiFe... they are not equivalent...

You may better compare the security of a123 to the security of the heavy Pb battery of you car...

Look at the video up to the conclusions...

I don't want to convince you... I just give facts and references...

Yes a123 are heavier than LiPo but "life" is much more easier for me since 2006... one pack per plane, charged at the field in max 15min... two Pb and iCharger 3010B for fast charge (20A) in my car... no balance (except once a year for check)... just charge the Pb at home...

I have about 200 cells some 9 years old...
Two failed... I forgot to switch Rx off... the best way to kill them

My worse test : short circuit... melting wire down... cells still OK
Another : crashing a Piper Cup 1/4 with 12s2p on board... Piper exploded literally... a123 intact...

But you are right... a silex may also be dangerous... you can make fire with a silex
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Old 06-03-2015, 04:16 PM
  #34  
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I understand the chemistries and that some are better, and safer than others. But they all store energy. Care while charging handling and using ALL batteries is needed.

Mike
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Old 06-03-2015, 05:25 PM
  #35  
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Ramboman. You are correct as far as you are thinking. But you are not thinking to the end of the process. For an extreme example, connect your beloved A123 batteries to a nichrome rocket igniter. Power up the system and what do you get? Fire.

The fire doesn't have to come from the batteries themselves. It can come from the things the battery is connected to. It can come from an ESC that draws too much power, a motor that freezes due to a seized bearing putting a dead short across the battery. Delivering a certain amount of energy makes it possible for that energy to be used destructively, no matter how safe the source of that energy.

Therefore safety procedures are appropriate with A123 batteries. The best you can say is that different safety procedures are necessary than those used for lithium chemistry batteries.
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Old 06-03-2015, 05:48 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins View Post
Ramboman. You are correct as far as you are thinking. But you are not thinking to the end of the process. For an extreme example, connect your beloved A123 batteries to a nichrome rocket igniter. Power up the system and what do you get? Fire.

The fire doesn't have to come from the batteries themselves. It can come from the things the battery is connected to. It can come from an ESC that draws too much power, a motor that freezes due to a seized bearing putting a dead short across the battery. Delivering a certain amount of energy makes it possible for that energy to be used destructively, no matter how safe the source of that energy.

Therefore safety procedures are appropriate with A123 batteries. The best you can say is that different safety procedures are necessary than those used for lithium chemistry batteries.
You are right... I disconnect the batteries when not in use...

My safety procedures follow :
=> master switch
=> throttle cut on Tx
=> failsafe to 0% on Rx
=> never fingers in the propeller

About my a123 packs... as secure as the battery of my car... probably more

Look :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P02NhW6NkfA

Last edited by ramboman; 06-03-2015 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 06-03-2015, 11:42 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by ramboman View Post

About my a123 packs... as secure as the battery of my car... probably more
They are way safer than that battery. But again dead short that car battery with a wrench - the energy stored in the battery will arc weld that dude. That does not mean the battery itself will catch on fire (it might) but that it contains significant power to melt wires, insulation on wires and other stuff in proximity.

It is the same as a loaded gun. Safe, when dealt with properly.

Mike
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