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TH Vista EP

Old 09-23-2009, 02:51 AM
  #1  
Chappy
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Default TH Vista EP

I just received my TH Vista sail plane/glider which I was going to convert to EP. They come stock as an EP with a 550 brushed installed and since I had just pulled a bran new one out of a under powered Super Sportster I thought I would put it to good use and install it into the Vista glider. I assumed it would be a cinch to install but seems there might be more to it than I had planned on..at least using the 550. Anyway, seems the nose is too narrow for the 550 to mount without making the cut way back almost into the battery hatch opening. SOooo, I am considering another motor, a 28mm like a KD 22-20M or L that requires less room. I was hoping to find a thread on here with such a converson but there doesn't seem to be one along these lines. Anyone out there have any thoughts or suggestions that might help me along with this converson I would appreciate your input.
Thanks
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Old 09-27-2009, 12:14 AM
  #2  
C140
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I've tried real hard to get a motor in the front, but it just doesn't seem to work. I converted mine with the motor on a pylon and it's worked great.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47936
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Old 09-27-2009, 02:41 AM
  #3  
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Crash: Yea, it's gonna' take some whittelin' for sure. I've ordered a KD22-20L for the install and I've cut the nose off just at the leading edge of the black hood covering. Using my dremmel with a sanding drum I've rounded out the nose to just over 30mm. I've reinforced the 2nd rib back to use as a firewall where I intend to mount the KD with a cross mount and everything "looks" like it will work. I made a front end piece out of ply and am waiting on the motor, spinner and prop to see how it all goes together. As the motor diamiter is just under 28mm it's going to be close. I'm not sure if its going to get enough air for cooling though. I'll try to take some pics and add them to the post.
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Old 09-27-2009, 03:52 AM
  #4  
Henry Sistrunk
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Hi Chappy, This is the way I converted mine. I did it the easy way. Just screwed an Eflite 450 on the existing firewall. I hardened the screw holes with thin CA. Could not find a folding prop to fit the 450 shaft. I have been flying it for nearly a year like this and have never broken a prop. It's not the neatest conversion but flies just fine like this.
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:30 AM
  #5  
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Might be easier to start with an EP fuse configuration with a brushed motor and then upgrade to BL later when you want more performance.

Hobbico Upstar will build out lighter than a TowerBobby Vista and comes with a durable poly fuse, 550 motor, battery and ESC for $89.95.

Note: I have a NIB Upstar available for $69 + actual shipping costs. (I also have an extra battery available for $12.00)



Clint
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:23 AM
  #6  
Chappy
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Default TH Vista EP conversion

Here's where I'm at to date. I've cut off the front end cap and hollowed out the nose to just over 30mm. I've made a new nose piece / firewall mounting plate from ply to to epoxy on front where I'll attach the cross mount. I made two 1/2" holes in the sidewalls for air circulation and incorporated scoops to collect and direct additional air flow, and made an airflow hole to the rear of the fusalage battery compartment area. I coated the inside of soft nose cone area with epoxy to add some strength, and I'll be installing a battery tray and servo rails soon. I'm still waiting on the motor (KD 22-20L) before mounting the nose plate and cross mount. I'll add some additional pic's as things progress. Hope these turn out well, I've never incerted pic's in a post before.
:
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Old 09-28-2009, 07:25 AM
  #7  
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Well Chappy, I'm happy to let you know that your design works perfectly. On a blast of inspiration from your posts, I tried it on mine. The thing flies great and has a noticably longer glide than with the motor up in the pod. You have no idea how long I sat there trying to figure how to get that first former that's canted 45* forward made into a firewall. I never even looked at the second one. Great thinking Chappy!
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:46 AM
  #8  
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Hey! Glad to hear it Crash. I like it! Looks so much better too doesn't it? Now you need to get a folding prop for that last bit of glider perfection and butification! It looks like you used a solid piece of ply for the firewall? I was concerned about heat build up w/o some means of suppling air flowing through the tiny motor compartment. Originally I was going to mount my motor exactly how you have done but now (because of the prop/spinner I've ordered) I'm thinking I might need to use the nose piece I've made as my mounting surface for the cross mount. (3rd pic) I'll have to wait and see if I can reverse the shaft in the KD I'm going to use before I know for sure.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:46 AM
  #9  
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You also might consider mounting the ply firewall seperate from the former now that you have that nice finished front end. That way you could still keep the motor forwards and just move the firewall until you get the right clearance. Epoxy and some triangle stock would keep it plenty strong.

Cooling isn't too bad since I'm not pushing my motor hard at all. After a few climbs, I try to open the dive brake for a while to get some serious air flow over the ESC and battery and that seems to keep everything in check.

The only problem I hit with the whole thing was when I went to mount the motor and realized I had left no room in the front for the screwdriver to go. It's kinda funny when you miss little things like that.
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:58 AM
  #10  
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My motor has arrived and I've completed the install so I've added some pic's here to show the progress. Like you crash, room for the screwdriver was limited. I did take your advice and move the firewall ahead of the former by about a 1/4 in which put the nose of the motor just beyond the cut portion of the nose. Because of the limited room I had to mount the cross motor mount to the firewall first, then epoxy the firewall in place. Then I attached the motor to its cross mount from behind. It was a little nerve racking but all is in place, centered well and nose cap installed. One brain fart though; after all the thought into how I could remove the motor if ever a problem developed and doing the above, I epoxied the nose cap instead of screwing it to the front end. Duha! Now when I need to remove or replace the motor I'm going to need to carefully cut the nose piece back off. I just got in a rush. (I wanta' get her in the air for tomorrows club meet)
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:14 PM
  #11  
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Good luck with the maiden - anxious to hear how it flies.
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Old 10-02-2009, 10:32 PM
  #12  
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I have the Vista E and took the speed 600 out of it first thing. I did NOT like the way it flew. I installed a KD A20-22L and have been having a ball. Normally I run a 3S 2200mAh battery and it runs great. I had a motor tear itself out of my nose when it threw a blade, so added some to the nose and I have it about perfect now on the CG. The battery goes under the wing like it is supposed to and the ESC goes in the nose right in back of the motor. I use a 10X6 folding prop from Aeronaut and a 45mm spinner from Hobby City. Make sure you put a GOOD plywood firewall in there. A LitePly firewall will not last very long. A 1/8" 5ply firewall works great and I haven't had one pull out yet. It climbs at about a 70Deg angle and weighs around 35oz ready to fly. It flies MUCH better then the stock one does. In fact, the stock one will not thermal until you start getting some really good thermals. With mine, I can thermal in lift that the stock glider would not even think about thermaling in. I extended my nose out to 8.5" and I need about 3/4"oz of led in the nose to get the CG right. The CG is almost 4" back from the leading edge. Don't even think about using the stock CG, or it will be way nose heavy. My Nose is about 1" longer then the stock nose on the E version because of the extension I added. It flies fantastic now and I would only change one thing. This winter I am going to install spoilers in it to help it during landing and to bring it down from a thermal when I get caught in a big one. Other then that it's a great flying glider and I could ask for more in a 2M glider.

Ed
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Old 10-03-2009, 12:17 AM
  #13  
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Cbatt,
Took the plane out yesterday for its maiden and she seems to fly well although the flight was cut short when it threw off the prop while still trimming it out and had to land. The folder was for a 3-3.2mm shaft, mines a 3mm. I guess it wasn't tight enough. I had my concerns when I had to add a second washer to the collet shaft but thought it was tight enough. Wrong! Anyway that's why the UGLY prop saver is shown in the pic's. It'll do until I get a new folding spinner prop.

Ed:
Sounds like your set up is the same as mine. I used 3/16's in ply for my mount with plenty of epoxy to keep it where it belongs. My Vista was not the EP version but I knew I would convert it over when I purchased it. (just trying to save a buck) My KD22-20L with a 10x8 prop that was on it seemed to have plenty of power, but as I said above, I threw the prop in flight and I've resorted to a prop saver type that I had on hand with a 11x4.7 SF prop. It's not as pretty but I'll be flying while I wait on a replacement. I've added nearly 2oz of lead to the nose. The round brass piece you see attached to the 2nd former is the base of a rifle case filled with epoxy and lead shot to bring the CG where it needs to be. Interesting you mention about the CG location. In the manual for mine it instructed to set the plane up for a 4" to the rear placement and adjust from there. I don't have the means to weigh the plane and I really haven't had the opportunity to get a good idea for how she fly's as the maiden was cut short when it threw the prop.
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Old 10-03-2009, 01:38 AM
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Glad to hear you got it in the air Chappy. I think you'll really enjoy it.

I keep the battery up front with the ESC which pretty much eliminated all the balance issues and I don't have to always take the wing off. It might make things easier if you have the space. Right now I've got the CG at around 3 1/2 inches, which makes it plow through some of the lighter lift, but it works out good for these blustery days we get out here in the valley.
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Old 10-03-2009, 01:58 AM
  #15  
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I have the E version, so I have a battery hatch on the bottom of the fuselage. I just open that up to change out the battery and don't have to take the wing off. I put my battery in the battery compartment like it is supposed to go, so I can change to different size batteries and don't have to worry about changing the CG. I made my nose longer after I ripped the nose off when I threw that prop blade. It just tore the nose off just aft of the firewall. I added about an inch and now just need a little led to get it flying right. Like I said, about 3/4oz is all I need to put in there. My CG is just to the point that it starts pulling up in a shallow dive. I have my motor mounted on the back side of the firewall, so I just need to take out a couple of screws to take the motor out. I have a false former just in back of the motor that I can slide out to remove the motor and use that to put the led on. It holds the wires out of the way. I have been flying mine for about 2 years now and love it.

I bought an extra wing to go with mine and it got trashed in the mail, so Tower sent me another one. Now I have three wings for it and plan to put spoilers on at least one of them this winter. I love the way mine flies. At 35oz, it just floats along and rides the thermals great. If your looking for a scale, they are cheap. I think I payed $15.00 for mine and it reads to 100oz. That's enough to weigh most any plane I want to build either in parts or all at once.

Ed
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:00 AM
  #16  
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Can you post pics of your setup including motor mounting?
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:35 AM
  #17  
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OK, I only got one to load right now, but it shows the front mount in my Spirit, but it's the same in the Vista. Just mount it right through the firewall with the prop shaft coming out the front and put an adapter for a folding prop on it and a spinner and that's it. It is easy to do, just bolt through the firewall to the motor and when you need to change motors, just take the prop off, take the mounting bolts off and the motor drops out the back into you hand. You don't use the X mount for this.

Ed
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Old 10-04-2009, 12:37 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by mred View Post
OK, I only got one to load right now, but it shows the front mount in my Spirit, but it's the same in the Vista. Just mount it right through the firewall with the prop shaft coming out the front and put an adapter for a folding prop on it and a spinner and that's it. It is easy to do, just bolt through the firewall to the motor and when you need to change motors, just take the prop off, take the mounting bolts off and the motor drops out the back into you hand. You don't use the X mount for this.

Ed
Thanks - I figured I would use the X adapter as a template to drill the holes but then just use screws directly on the wood as you have shown.

My biggest concern has been the wires which would be sandwiched between the fuse and the spinning can of the BL motor. Any advise of sugestions on how to dress the wires?

Twodiffrerent motors mentioned:

KD22-20L
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=2106

KD A20-22L http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=4700

Looks like the A22-20L is the more powerful of the two.




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Old 10-04-2009, 12:57 AM
  #19  
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I used the X mount to make a hole pattern for the mount too. After you drill one hole, put a bolt through it to hold it in place good and then drill the other three. I put a false bulkhead in behind the motor to hold the wires in place. I just glued 1/8" square to the sides so the bulkhead slides in a slot between the 1.8" rails and cut the corner out of it on the bottom to hold the wires out of the way and hold them down.

In this picture you can see a piece or wood glued in to hold the wires down, but this is my Spirit and it has more room. The Vista is kind of tight with the KD motor in there and I used a false bulkhead on it. I also glue the led weights on the bulkhead so they slide out when I take it out and they don't rattle around in there. They also help hold the bulkhead in place. The bulkhead is NOT full height so air can pass over the top to get to the ESC and battery, but I use a 30A ESC and a 2200mAh battery 20C and they never get past warm when I fly it. I only run the motor for about 30 seconds at the most and most of the time less then that, so it will all stay cool in there.

Hope this helps you, If not, I can take some pictures of the Vista and post them so you can see exactly what I did.

Ed
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Old 10-04-2009, 01:44 AM
  #20  
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Perfect - many thanks.

Does HobbyCity sell the folding propellor you are using or can you steer me to another source?

Also 10 x 8 seems like a lot of prop for this little motor. Calculator shows this drawing 30 amps and generating nearly 60 oz of thrust.




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Old 10-04-2009, 02:03 AM
  #21  
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OK, I don't have my Vista at home, but this is the Chrysalis that is almost the same thing. The first one shows the bulkhead I added holding the wires down - the second one shows the top view of the nose section with the ESC and the third one is a close-up of the area where the false bulkhead goes with just the rails glued in to the sides. I just slide the former out and the wires are free. With it installed, it keeps the wires out of the motor so they don't rub on the sides. The former that normally goes in there is gone on the Vista and this one is added, but then I added 1/32" plywood doubler to the nose when I re-built it to make it a little stronger in that area when I added to the nose length. You need to notch the tri stock on top in the nose area to put this former in place. I also put a 1/8" Liteply brace across the top of the fuselage at the back of the tri stock where the former used to go. You can leave that one in if you want to, I just removed it when I made the nose longer and put the doubler in the nose. If you want, you can make the former go all the way to the top and then drill a hole in it to get some air back to the ESC and battery. You want to mount the motor so the wires are in a lower corner of the nose so you have room for them to run back to the ESC and not rub on the motor.

Ed
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Old 10-04-2009, 02:15 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by cbatters View Post
Perfect - many thanks.

Does HobbyCity sell the folding propellor you are using or can you steer me to another source?

Also 10 x 8 seems like a lot of prop for this little motor. Calculator shows this drawing 30 amps and generating nearly 60 oz of thrust. Clint
I use a 10X6 folding prop from Esprite models. The spinner is from Hobby City, but you need to buy two of them to get a 3mm adapter. I think the 40mm has a 3mm adapter and they interchange with the 45mm I have on mine. With a 10X6 folding prop I am drawing 20 amps on mine. Chappy is the one using the 10X8 and yes, that is a little over proped for me. Your not supposed to go over 25 amps for 30 seconds if I remember right and 20 amps constant. Either an Aeronaut or Graupner folding prop will work fine. I tried an 11X6, but didn't see any improvement in climb, but had a few more amps. I am flying a 10X6 now and may try a 9X6 just to see if it makes any difference.

Ed
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Old 10-04-2009, 04:04 AM
  #23  
Chappy
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Cbat:
I purchased my folder thru HC which was for a 3mm-3.175mm shaft. I had problems/concerns with it being tight enough and had to add a second flat washer under the nut to draw the backing plate tight enough on the collet to grip the shaft. I thought it was tight. Well it still wasn't and on the maiden I threw the whole works. Couldn't find it so I'm ordering this one to replace it, as I still have two sets of 10x6 blades to fit it. Also since the nose end of the spinner is open and the backing plate has slots it will allow more air flow to the motor.

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s..._/_3.0mm_shaft

Ed:
Since throwing the folder and replacing it with a prop saver (for now) I had to cut the rubber band 'tounge' for the hood hold down out of the 3rd former and add a battery tray btwn the 3rd and 2nd former so I could slide my battery forward and retain the correct CG. I hope to fly it tomorrow if the wind calms down. Really gusty 20-25mph here today. Also want to mention that I have a couple KD motors and they are nicely under rated for the performance they can put out. A 10x8 doesn't seem to over tax them at all. Especially for all the more they run in a glider.
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Old 10-04-2009, 04:50 AM
  #24  
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If you toss a wattmeter on it I think you will find it running at 30A

http://brantuas.com/ezcalc/dma1.asp

E-FLite Park 400-1020
Prop 10 x 8 - 2 blade
29 amps / 300 watts / 60 oz thrust
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:22 AM
  #25  
Chappy
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Can't argue with the numbers Cbatt, that why I say they are under rated. If you read some of the reviews on the motor in HC you'll find some are using 11x8 and 12x8 props. I've got this same motor in a Funtana runing a 11X7 with no issues at all.
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