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Phase 3 ef-16 questions

Old 11-11-2008, 04:31 AM
  #1  
ih8nixon
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Default Phase 3 ef-16 questions

I have ordered the phase 3 f-16, don's wicked 5400 kv motor, and a 40-amp pentium esc. I am planning on flying this with 3s and 4s lipos.

I have been thinking about servos and I have several HXT-900 servos from hobbycity sitting around. Will these be enough or should I order some hs-65's?

This is the first model that I am going to glass I have found several good tutorials on this and my remaining questions are. Should I use .5 oz or .75 oz fiberglass cloth? How many yards should I order?, and Should I use minwax polycrylic or a finishing resin?


I have also heard people say that you should break in the fan unit with the motor on the bench. How do you do this?
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:01 AM
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hillbille
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Don't mean to hijack the thread - but I have a few questions about this plane too.

Do you glass OVER the paper on the plane - or remove it first? (In which case the airframe only kit without the paper already on would be better?).

Better to use carbon fiber rods, tubes, or flats for reinforcement spars?

Will the stock XF fan stand up to a Don's wicked 4800 on 4S or should I just go for the HET 6904 and full power replacement? (I will be happy with it at 100 or so - although I will do all the tail mods for safety!)

Thanks in advance!!


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Old 11-11-2008, 05:05 AM
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Well I don't know too much as far as breaking in the motor on the bench...I've never done this with my EDFs and they all flew fine and still do.

As for the "glassing, you can pretty much do the same thing by "silking" rather than using fiberglass cloth and resin. All you need is some light weight silk like Thai Silk. I've done this with several of my planes. YES, the Minwax Water Based Polycrylic (WBP) works extremely well and does the job. Here's a link to where I got my silk from:
https://www.thaisilks.com/advanced_s...C+5mm%2C+36%22

The page that comes up is the type of silk I purchased. It only cost me $16.00 for 3-1/2 yards shipped. Silking will help keep the weight down...more weight with "glassing". I hope this helps.
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:10 AM
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Hillbillie, if you're gonna go with a HET 6904 on a 4s setup. you'll definitely want to reinforce the wings and tailerons (or however you want to say it). I'm planning on using CF rods for the control surfaces and maybe some thicker CF rods for the wings.
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Old 11-11-2008, 06:08 AM
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ih8nixon
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Does silk strengthen the airframe as much as fiberglass?
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Old 11-11-2008, 08:04 AM
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The Don
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The stock fan on 4S with the Wicked 5400 will get you 100mph. The only mods you will need to do is the tail stiffening mod with the plywood sheet. If you plan on going past 100 mph like the HET 6904 on 4S then you will need to glass it and add a carbon wing spar.

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Old 11-11-2008, 08:56 AM
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Larry3215
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Don,

IIRC, didnt you try the Eflight SF fan in yours? I was thinking you liked it better than the stock XF fan. I need to go back and look that up but I think you - or someone - had the Wicked 4000 in the SF on 4S and was getting just over 100 mph?

I just ordered the bare F16 kit over the weekend. I have a couple of the XF fans and Im pretty sure I have an unused SF fan as well.

Im thinking of going with the SF and a lower Kv motor and trying 5S 2100 Prolite packs - if I can fit the packs in the plane.

I have a Hyperion outrunner that is around 3200 Kv which might do ok on 5S in very short bursts - maybe. Its only about the size and mass of the LS motor so its going to be very far outside its operating range.

OK - just checked the notes on your web site and it looks like the Wicked 4000 in the SF on 4S was in the 450 watt range. That means Im probably going to be in the same watt range on 5S which is pushing a bit too hard I think - maybe
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:35 PM
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The Don
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Yes the SF fan and the Wicked 4000 on 4S will get you 100 mph as well and on less watts. It is just that not everyone wants to replace the stock fan.

Don
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Old 11-11-2008, 06:26 PM
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Well first of all "silking" is not gonna do much for you in terms of strength. Sure it will make the foam look a lot prettier and less subject to "hanger rash"
If you are gonna glass I used .5 glass and resin for the entire airframe
1 layer on the plane and 2 layers on the lower duct and wing tips to protect on landing.
I eventually got tired of playing around with these small motors and fans so I stuck a schubler 75 MM fan with a HET 2W-25 in it.
I fly with a 6 cell 3200 Mah Flight power and man she really cooks
140 to 150 Mph all day long with no sweat
You could do the exact same set-up on the HET 6904 fan for a lot less cash than the schubie
Good reliable solid set-up
I have been flying mine for well over a year now with zero issues

as for the member that was asking if the paper should be removed before glassing ...yes definitely!
If you don't remove it after a few months you will develop air bubbles under the paper and glass and it becomes a royal PITA
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Old 11-11-2008, 07:44 PM
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Mike, Don, USMC_VTOL_Mech -

Thanks! Having never built one of these before or had access to one - some of the mods are a little difficult to understand. Not what the mod is supposed to DO but how and where the mod is orientated on the airframe is sometimes unclear.

Glassing is another aspect that I have not had a lot of success with - steep learning curve - but I will keep trying until I get it where it looks decent. Just putting a lot of resin on the .5 or .75 cloth and attempting to "smooth" it out in 30 minutes leaves me with about 3 months worth of sanding!!

Carbon fiber spars go into EVERYTHING I build - even the small foamy's so that part is a no brainer for me. I fly foamy's with elevon/taileron's a lot so that also is within my understanding curve - the strengthening of the attachment seems pretty clear when thinking of the stresses that 100 MPH+ must place there! Seems a lot of crashes with this plane are due to the tail failure - but WHAT part - the support structure - the taileron itself - control rod failure - foam softening due to use - or is it more of a pilot failure of too much control movement at too high a speed inducing structural failure?

Like I said before - every question answered just leads to two more!! At least it does for me - LOL!!! Of course most will become self answering as I build the plane and the others will become easier to describe and understand when parts are "in hand".

I will keep reading the threads - as I begin to test fit parts!!


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Old 11-11-2008, 08:24 PM
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Larry3215
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Originally Posted by ih8nixon View Post
........


I have also heard people say that you should break in the fan unit with the motor on the bench. How do you do this?
When these small fans are run at extreme rpm levels, the blades will stretch and rub on the housing.

If you take a new fan unit and go to full throttle on the first run up it can jam the blades if they are stretching and cause the amp draw to sky rocket and or shatter the housing and/or blades.

Its possible to blow a controller, motor and fan unit all in one instant

Its always a good idea to run up a fan slowly at first - maybe 1/4 throttle. Then fix any vibration issues and check for rubbing. The motor may be mounted off center or the adapter may be off center or something. Fix it now

Then go to 1/2 throttle and repeat.

Each time you increase speed, as the blades stretch they will wear down gradually. If the rubbing is all on one spot you know the motor is off center a bit.

Repeat until your running at full power with no rubbing and no vibration.

Do NOT do this by holding the fan in your hand. You will probably distort the shroud and cause unnecessary rubbing and you may loose important bits of your body
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Old 11-11-2008, 08:28 PM
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Hillbille
The main part that fails at high speeds and high G's is the pylon (the part of the airframe that extends backwards and the elevon slides into it)
There are a few ways to fix the problem
What I did on mine is bury a 1/8 carbon rod into the foam from the back of the pylon all the way straight to the LE of the wing
It's sunk down in the foam.
Then I boxed the pylon on the outside, top and bottom with 1/64 th plywood extending all the way forward to the Trailing edge of the wing.
You can also make a "Inner bushing" for the elevon to ride into and that helps a lot just by itself. It's just a bushing for the inner part of the elevon rod to slide into near the exhaust cone
Like I said before That is the only carbon I have in mine and it has lived a long happy life
The double layer of glass on the bottom really aids in landing and if need be can be pavement landed
Hope this cleared things up a bitis Oh yeah and I am using HS-65 Metal gear servos just for strength and reliability
I am also flying mine with stock linkage on the elevons also. I keep meaning to beef it up with heavy duty hardware but it is still holding as we speak
I clipped an inch off of each wing and made my tailerons 3/4 inch shorter
Love this plane....
wicked fast and 5 minute run times
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Old 11-11-2008, 11:35 PM
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USMC_VTOL_Mech,

I knew about boxing in the rear - as I have the supplimental pages and templates - and had also considered applying a CF flat or tube through the pylon - but utilizing both the CF rod and the boxing together sounds even better! As with all things I don't expect to go really fast but I might as well prepare for it as though it was my first intention all along.

I see in the instructions that the "rods" are glues into the tailerons via a slot with an "L" bend at the end - you are suggesting that following this a brass "bushing" support tube be placed over the remaining rod before it is attached so that the rod is "free" to rotate inside the bushing after it is glued? If so that makes sense to me as the load gets transferred over a wider area and the "wear" factor is practically eliminated. Thanks,

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Old 11-12-2008, 12:35 AM
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Hillbille
I can see how I said what I did is a slight bit confusing
When I say "Inner Bushing" I mean in addition to the two that are already in the pylon but this one is placed into the main fusalage so just the very end of the elevon wire goes into it. Maybe I can explain it a bit better
slide the elevon through the pylon, then the little ball linkage slides on and tightens down. Then you will have about an 1/8 inch or so wire still visible that pokes into the main fusalage......instad of just pokeing into foam make a bushing to capture that little bit
So the elevon is actually being spported by 3 pieces instead of just the brass collets in the pylons
understand?
Also make sure and remove the brass bushings in the pylons when you get your kit and reglue them flush....they come sticking out a bit and it makes for sloppy linkage
I am flying with stock glassed elevons and have had no problems with the wire itself working loose
The glass makes these pieces really strong
I hear you on getting all that resin spread in 30 minutes
I just work in small sections using a foam brush to apply the resin
after the glass is saturated thouroughly then use an old credit card or similar to even things out a bit
When I say small sections I usually divide the plane up
I will do the top and bottom of a wing as one section
then the fuselage as another
Vert stab
then I do the lower ducting and elevons both at once
I make my lower ducting removable by cutting it into three sections
Four inches for the front section and to the front of the servos as the rear section
then I make a tab on the middle section that slides under the rear section and a bolt to retain the front
Therefore fan and esc access is easily done for maintenance
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:54 AM
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I think I got it - and I really like the sectioning of the bottom for access. Short CF tabs in the rear and a small nylon bolt up front aught to do it!!


Thanks!!

Hillbille
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Old 11-14-2008, 04:44 AM
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Larry3215
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Got my bare bones kit today! $64.99 shipped. Everything looks good in the box with no damage.

I was surprised to see it included a decal sheet. None of the wings or tail pieces are pre-covered so that makes it easier for glassing. It came with the paper covering material, build manual and supplimental sheet with tail templates but I wont use the paper covering.

Im going to do the tails mods and glass the airframe with .5 ounce cloth and floor wax. Got to have a rudder too.

Im going to use the larger E-Flight SF fan and I may do an inlet duct too. I need to run some tests to see which of the motors I have on hand will work best with the packs I have on hand to get the max rpm out of that fan.

Wont get to that for several days most likely.
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Old 11-14-2008, 06:46 PM
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I just ordered my Phase 3 F-16 yesterday. I noticed it has a 3 bladed fan. If I were to use a Don's 5400kv and 40A ESC on a 3s...could that be done without burning anything up, and about how fast do you guys think she would fly? Thanks.

Mike
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:10 PM
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Im sure Don will chime in soon, but check out Don's web site. Looks like a good option to me for the stock fan - which is an XF fan by all accounts.

http://www.donsrc.com/cart/index.php...d&productId=50

3S lipo in XF fan: 51,000 rpm, 30 amps, 330 watts
4S lipo in XF fan: 60,000 rpm, 41 amps, 540 watts (44amps and 570 watts on newer high discharge lipos)


Not sure if 3S will get you to 100 or not but it will be a big jump over stock. 4S should do it
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:28 PM
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Looks like we have several of us just starting on this plane. There are also two or three other threads on the F-16 going at the same time.

Shall we hijack this thread and make it a group build/modify/how-do-I-do-this thread or should we start a new one or all jump in on one of the other threads or?

I like the idea of one big thread with lots of guys contributing different ideas and experiences, but some may not.

Comments?
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:47 PM
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larry, I'm with you. I say we just go off of this on here. After all, the title IS "Phase 3 EF-16 Questions".
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:48 PM
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So the stock fan IS pretty much the same thing as an XF fan? If it is, then I will go off of Don's website as far as motor and 3s or 4s. Thanks Larry.

Mike
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:10 PM
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The Don
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The stock fan is the XF fan. The Wicked 5400 on 3S gives a little better than stock performance. 4S on the stock fan with Wicked 5400 will get you 100 mph. But for about 100 watts less you can go 4S and the SF/Eflite fan ($13 a pair) and the Wicked 4000 and get 100-105 mph. That is what I put in my last HP F16.

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Old 11-15-2008, 12:06 AM
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I don't know if Don is just being gracious or not - BUT - the stock motor and fan will NOT get to 100 without 4S - on 3S the stock power system will give adequate power and fly the plane modestly 70 - 90 mph depending a LOT on the batteries used - i.e. - a 15C 2200 3S will get 70 - 80 and a good 20C or better yet a good 25C will get you up to 90mph - box stock - slight variances depending on altitude and weather.

The stock setup WILL get you 100mph if you use a 4S - but not long - mabe 2 or three flights - then the little motor will lock up - if you are lucky it will just make a screeching sound and slowly come to a smoking stop - while you hope you have enough altitude for a landing - or if you are unlucky it will just stop - bending the shaft from Centrifugal force and - boom - the fan is loose inside your airplane wreaking havoc!!

This is what I mean by Don is being gracious - he's (IMHO) not "pushing" a motor on anyone - but if you want your HP F-16 to exceed the 100mph barrier then you really need 4S and one of Don's motors. Actually the ones I have actually "seen" do this were using the Wicked 4800 on 4S - but the guy didn't do speed flying all the time - just short 10 - 12 second high speed passes - rest of the time was spent normal flying at very reduced throttle - 1/2 or not more than 3/4.

Hillbille
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:47 AM
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Hillbille, I think Don was in referrence to HIS motor with a 3s, not the stock motor on 3s...if I understood correctly. Are there any specs on the motor anywhere (manual, on-line)? I wish that the manufacturer would list the motor specs when their plane comes with the motor already installed. I can't seem to find any specs on the stock motor.
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Old 11-15-2008, 03:03 AM
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Stock phase 3 motor is 5100 KV
If you even plug a 4 cell into the stock ESC you will see the magic smoke appear
Box stock F-16 does 65 to 70 Mph on a straight level pass
We radared it 6 tmes and couldn't get a faster pass on a level flight
That was with a flightpower 2500 Mah pack
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