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Harriers

Old 10-01-2016, 01:08 AM
  #1  
Vic Z
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Default Harriers

I am totally new to 3D, or post stall flight if you will and have a harrier question.
I have an Eflite Sukhoi and am learning to harrier. I started way up high and am now down to about 20'. I understand that wing rock is part of the game for smaller planes. The Sukhoi does it, and it is just back and forth. Doesn't try to wing drop or stall.
Is there anything that I should be doing to minimize it, or should I be trying to fight it or compensate?

Thank you,
Vic
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Old 10-01-2016, 03:54 AM
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pizzano
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Happy to hear the rudder is now being incorporated more in your flights........still using the SAFE technology....?

If you're performing up-right "high-alpha" harriers, and circle gliding.....wing flutter/rock, even with a +40" wingspan foamy, should not be much of an issue if aileron/rudder mix is in harmony (and you're not fighting any wind).........if the plane is balanced well, throttle management will pull the craft out of a rock if one is not over compensating/jerking the rudder to catch up with the aileron......

Last edited by pizzano; 10-01-2016 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 10-01-2016, 05:54 AM
  #3  
Vic Z
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Rudder has become very active
Still has the safe receiver in it, but I dont use it in training mode so mostly just provides a little bit of stabilization in the wind when in precision mode. Otherwise you are pretty much on your own. Will be replacing the rx soon as you have to switch "modes" to get the big throws, and again to fly at any speed. More of a pita than anything else.
I can stay in harrier for as long as i want, but still finding the balance between elevator and throttle. Nose too high and it won't steer, too low and it picks up speed.
Have only been working it for 2 outings (once a week due to that inconvenient thing called a job), but getting better and having a blast.
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Old 10-01-2016, 06:22 AM
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"I can stay in harrier for as long as i want, but still finding the balance between elevator and throttle".............sounds more like a hover, in harrier you're "walking/drifting" the craft throughout a small or large circle (not spinning), (smooth, even rudder application) while trying to maintain a consistent/level height.....all the while staying on the edge of a stall with throttle............Keep at it, soon you'll be rotating both counter and clockwise without hesitation.
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Old 10-01-2016, 07:07 AM
  #5  
Vic Z
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Yes. It is kind of in between I guess. I call it a hovarrier
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Old 10-01-2016, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
in harrier you're "walking/drifting" the craft throughout a small or large circle (not spinning), (smooth, even rudder application) while trying to maintain a consistent/level height.....all the while staying on the edge of a stall with throttle............Keep at it, soon you'll be rotating both counter and clockwise without hesitation.
Not sure what you are thinking of there but it doesnt sound like a harrier? A harrier is very much 'post stall' it's usually flown at an alpha of about 40-45 degrees and it doesnt involve any 'rotation'.

Here's a harrier training vid (on a sim):


Vic,
If the wings are rocking that often means that you arent at high enough nose up angle, the plane is flying too much on the wing and not enough on the prop. Some planes are hard to harrier without some rock, adding more area to the vertical stab/rudder helps stop the rock... Or if you are up to it do it inverted, they usually dont rock nearly so much when inverted.
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Old 10-01-2016, 04:07 PM
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Tks JPF ... you answered before me !

As you say a Harrier is a high alpha attitude moving forward keeping height constant .... can be straight or round a circle ... no rotation ....

Trouble is to solve wing rock when using assisted such as Safe is difficult to advise - as I understand it Safe does not totally switch out so you still have some input from it when you think its off.

I would be inclined to swap out the Safe unit for a more advanced unit that caters for 3D and actually full switch off capability.JPF and I have had amazing success with Hobby Eagle A3 SuperII units.
Safe is great for early days of getting to fly but as I read many reports - soon the limits are reached and need to move on.

Please - a purely personal view....

Nigel
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Old 10-01-2016, 05:12 PM
  #8  
Vic Z
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I understand and agree.
Like I said, the safe rx is mostly just a pain for me. I am not a fan of any outside input (as far as I can tell), and you have to switch modes between aerodynamic and post stall flight. Very cumbersome.
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Old 10-01-2016, 05:35 PM
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JPF.......thanks for the Voro vid.......just like I mentioned, the craft is being moved along in a circle, can also be performed as T's or X's.....the point is that the craft does not stay stationary in one place like a hover.......and the craft does not spin on it's axis......obviously, done perfectly, the craft should maintain between a 40 to 45 degree vertical angle and maintain/stay in a consistent horizontal plane at a constant height and speed.............geeez, you late night (might add, elbow bending.....lol) RC pro's got nothing better to do other than one-up and knit-pick a basic, simple interpretation......the OP clearly understood what was communicated........lol.
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Old 10-01-2016, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
JPF.......thanks for the Voro vid.......just like I mentioned, the craft is being moved along in a circle, can also be performed as T's or X's.....the point is that the craft does not stay stationary in one place like a hover.......and the craft does not spin on it's axis......obviously, done perfectly, the craft should maintain between a 40 to 45 degree vertical angle and maintain/stay in a consistent horizontal plane at a constant height and speed.............geeez, you late night (might add, elbow bending.....lol) RC pro's got nothing better to do other than one-up and knit-pick a basic, simple interpretation......the OP clearly understood what was communicated........lol.
To be blunt P ... what are you on about ?

A harrier is a straight forward high alpha attitude moving slowly forward straight or round a circuit ... based on prop wash and hanging ...

What is this "craft is being moved along in a circle, can also be performed as T's or X's" .....

Nothing to do with nit-picking late night Pro's ............. just putting forth correct info.

VicZ is looking for answers ..... JPF was correct ...

It is obvious you are getting two distinctly different manoeuvres confused with each other ...

in harrier you're "walking/drifting" the craft throughout a small or large circle (not spinning), (smooth, even rudder application) while trying to maintain a consistent/level height.....all the while staying on the edge of a stall with throttle............Keep at it, soon you'll be rotating both counter and clockwise without hesitation.
Which indicates you are talking about a ROLLING HARRIER ... which is a completely different ball game to a standard Harrier as VicZ is talking about.

Nigel
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Old 10-01-2016, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
you late night (might add, elbow bending.....lol) RC pro's got nothing better to do other than one-up and knit-pick a basic, simple interpretation......the OP clearly understood what was communicated........lol.
I honestly thought you were talking about something entirely different to a harrier. I genuinely wasn't trying to be a 'smart ass'.
"walking/drifting through a small circle" and "rotating both counter and clockwise" simply doesnt even remotely describe the essence of harrier flight IMHO. Harrier flight is quite simply post-stall high alpha forward flight.. no 'rotating' or 'small circles' involved.

And I dont think Vic understood at all, in fact i think you confused him into thinking what he was doing was not actually harrier flight!
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Old 10-01-2016, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Vic Z View Post
I understand and agree.
Like I said, the safe rx is mostly just a pain for me. I am not a fan of any outside input (as far as I can tell), and you have to switch modes between aerodynamic and post stall flight. Very cumbersome.
I was not a fan of any gyro or assisted unit ... till flying some models that defied normal control. I played with Orange units but found flashing them and adjusting a pain ...

Then I played with the P1 ... UGH !!

Then found the Hobby Eagle units on Banggood ............ they have changed my whole attitude to Flight Control Units ........... the capabilty is amazing and YOU have control of IT ... not IT of YOU ...

I can only recc'd them to people .. until you try one and see what it can do ... you really do not know what you are missing.

Nigel
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Old 10-01-2016, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
To be blunt P ... what are you on about ?

A harrier is a straight forward high alpha attitude moving slowly forward straight or round a circuit ... based on prop wash and hanging ...

What is this "craft is being moved along in a circle, can also be performed as T's or X's" .....

Nothing to do with nit-picking late night Pro's ............. just putting forth correct info.

VicZ is looking for answers ..... JPF was correct ...

It is obvious you are getting two distinctly different manoeuvres confused with each other ...



Which indicates you are talking about a ROLLING HARRIER ... which is a completely different ball game to a standard Harrier as VicZ is talking about.

Nigel
Thanks for confirming my suspicions......nothing else to do I guess...lol........ Fine, correct me when I'm wrong, this statement may not be exact but it clearly indicates the plane is not spinning/rotating/ rolling like a "rolling harrier ("in harrier you're "walking/drifting" the craft throughout a small or large circle (not spinning), (smooth, even rudder application) while trying to maintain a consistent/level height.....all the while staying on the edge of a stall with throttle....)"...."(and the craft does not spin on it's axis......obviously, done perfectly, the craft should maintain between a 40 to 45 degree vertical angle and maintain/stay in a consistent horizontal plane at a constant height and speed)".

But, please try real hard to keep the opinions within the realm of the conversation without also mucking-up the entire thread with additional pokes, I know more than you, I'll prove it, "what are you about" innuendo's....your consideration is appreciated.......!

Sorry Vic, good intentions once again gone astray...my apologies!
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Old 10-01-2016, 08:25 PM
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In the spirit of Wattflyer where we do not get into the 'muck' like another forum ... I shall leave you P in your fantasy realm.

Your description is wrong and has been shown to be by not only myself. A Harrier has no reference, attribute or any other part that involves a 'circle' ... it is purely a nose high angle of model maintained by prop wash and careful control ... QED.

Nigel
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Old 10-01-2016, 08:41 PM
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Vic Z
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And........back to the original conversation. Lol
Sounds like a little higher with the nose should help, but even at that I still get a little wing rock, but not to any point of danger.
Is this something that I should just accept or do I continually compensate with rudder/aileron?
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Old 10-01-2016, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Vic Z View Post
And........back to the original conversation. Lol
Sounds like a little higher with the nose should help, but even at that I still get a little wing rock, but not to any point of danger.
Is this something that I should just accept or do I continually compensate with rudder/aileron?
Its not uncommon to suffer wing rock and find it difficult to stop it. It can come from many factors .. wind turbulence can upset one wing momentarily ... your hands on the sticks getting into a seesaw effect ... even to SAFE trying to correct what you command ..

All I can advise is to keep practising and see if you can tune your reaction to the model.

I have to admit that I wing rock nearly every time ... and because I fly so many different types and style of model ... I have over 60 and of those over 50 ready to fly ... I have resigned myself to it ...
I fitted the Hobby Eagle A3 SuperII in the end to clean it up for the Club Displays we put on ... but I do switch it off to practice and learn more.
Over 50 yrs model flying and I haven't cured it !!

I think you are doing marvelous in the time you've been at it ...

Nigel
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Old 10-01-2016, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Vic Z View Post
Is this something that I should just accept or do I continually compensate with rudder/aileron?
You cant really correct it with aileron and rudder, if you try all that happens is you and up making it worse. What should stop it is increasing the angle of attack to be more 'nose up'. But some models are really hard to stop the rock, small ones especially.

I did some experiments a while back and found that enlarging the vertical stabiliser and/or rudder was very effective in preventing wing rock, but to be totally effective meant enlarging to comical proportions.
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Old 10-01-2016, 09:50 PM
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I dug out my old videos that I did of my experiments with enlarged vertical stab/rudder to reduce wing rock. The plane is a Hobbyking Slick 360 which is a nice flying plane but wing rocks pretty bad. More skilled flyers than me can hold a higher alpha angle but for me it rocks as standard. I experimented with bits of foam taped on to increase vertical stab area. I eventually found a compromise that looked ok and stopped most of the rock and built a bigger rudder to the correct size. it was MUCH better at harrier after the change.

Standard rudder:


Testing with foam added:


New balsa rudder:


It still would rock a little after application of rudder but quickly settled down.

As a side note.. I really liked this plane as I'd put so much work into it, including my own hand would motor. But a guy was really interested in it and i agreed to sell it to him. So i sold it to him then a couple of days later he tells me that when he was flying it "the wings fell off", and he send me a pic of the plane in pieces. Clearly he either didnt assemble it correctly or he simply crashed it, because there was absolutely nothing wrong with the model. He then makes veiled threats to muddy my name on the forums. Rather than face the hassle i ended up refunding him half the money.

I took that as a lesson not to sell any planes to anyone I dont know, it's not worth the hassle, there are too many scum bags out there.
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Old 10-02-2016, 08:43 AM
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JPF - I fully understand your position on selling on models.

I sold on most if my hangar when I left UK - but made sure buyers understood - I was not responsible for what they did with them.

I have to say that I suffered a bad model buy from a guy - the EF Extra 300. Underpowered, poorly repaired after he crashed it - I wish I had never seen it. But I did not blame him for buying it - caveat emptor .... I knew I was buying second-hand.

Maybe its time to introduce Vic to your HE controller ? You did excellent vids of it ....

Nigel
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Old 10-11-2016, 07:34 PM
  #20  
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Wing rock is a component of many variables, the best thing to do is to learn how to counter it, mainly with aileron and rudder (just depends).

Inverted harriers tend to be a bit more stable since you're now putting the entire rudder and vertical stab in the clean airflow, it acts like a keel.

Another thing to try is to bounce your throttle up and down a bit to help keep a higher amount of airflow flowing over the surface. You bounce it up and down because increasing throttle gives a blast of airflow over the surfaces, but when you reduce the throttle it keeps the airplane from rising.

At 0:54 in this video you can hear me moving the throttle up and down to help stabilize the harrier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s87yk5ToIs
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Old 10-12-2016, 07:13 AM
  #21  
Vic Z
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Thank you.
That is some nice flying
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Old 10-14-2016, 01:29 AM
  #22  
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OK I am late to the game. But I have learned a trick that makes harriers pretty darn easy.

To start make sure you are flying directly into the wind. The secret or trick I learned is about 15 degrees Flap with some Up Elevator. Doing that and flying into the wind takes all the Wobble out of it.

Makes it easy to be good at which leads to another 3D move that drops some jaws. When into the wind the planes ground speed is almost nothing and the plane just hangs there. With a little practice you can fly the plane right up to you and snatch it out of the air.
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Old 10-14-2016, 03:24 AM
  #23  
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Yeah, when it's hanging on the prop, its technically no longer flying at all. No lift.

I don't know of any 3D planes that have flaps. But I have seen the e-flight CarbonZ Cub do harriers. Not well, but... Nevertheless
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Old 12-11-2016, 03:31 PM
  #24  
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I designed this plane intentionally for very slow 3D flying. I wanted the most area in a small package so I can easily fit it in my van without taking the wings off. Came out to 30 in. span. Had to be very light, as it would have to do a lot of prop hanging. Came out to 1 lb. 3 oz. Hard on batts otherwise. The DR1 comes close, so I made it look like a plane everyone knows.
For slow flying , I made the ails on all three wings and are very wide. Elev and rudder are very big too.
It had the problem we're talking about. In high alpha. the wings would rock in a rolling motion. That didn't come out right.
I later installed a Lemon rcvr in it, to get some gyro stability. It uses the gear channel to turn the gyros on and off.
I set it up so the ails move about a 1/4 in. with hard rolling motion.
Now, when it starts rolling in harrier or high alpha and I switch the gyro in, it stops cold. .
The plane is not pretty as it is more purpose built, rather than looks.
On a calm day you wouldn't know the gyro was there, but on a windy day it sure helps stability, where you wouldn't fly without it.
I consider it as a new tool, as you can see.
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Old 12-12-2016, 12:33 AM
  #25  
solentlife
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I have an SE5 designed by a guy for 3D ... but so far have resisted temptation to 3D it ... I just love the slow flying of it.



Nigel
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