What You Need To Know About Receivers - Page 5 - WattFlyer RC Electric Flight Forums - Discuss radio control eflight

RC Radios, Transmitters, Receivers, Servos, gyros Discussion all about rc radios, transmitters, receivers, servos, etc.

What You Need To Know About Receivers

Old 12-08-2013, 07:14 AM
  #101  
edray999
Eric R
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 22
Default 72 mHz radios

Nobody wants to discuss FM radios anymore? I think they're great for two reasons: 1) they work, have cross channel mixes and great range, and 2) I have one already and it's free.

What I wonder is why there aren't tons of xtals and xmtrs waiting to be snapped up cheap. I bid online for a Futaba frequency module TP-FSM to go in my 9ch classic xmtr FP-T9VAP. The module went for $75.00! New ones are $99.99. Amazing. Crystals are also spendy. All for the sake of the glorious spread spectrum 2.4 gHz craze. Anyway, FM works so well that I'm glad to have all the cards on the frequency board to choose from. Eric
edray999 is offline  
Old 12-08-2013, 07:29 AM
  #102  
kyleservicetech
Super Contributor
 
kyleservicetech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 8,952
Default

Originally Posted by edray999 View Post
Nobody wants to discuss FM radios anymore? I think they're great for two reasons: 1) they work, have cross channel mixes and great range, and 2) I have one already and it's free.

What I wonder is why there aren't tons of xtals and xmtrs waiting to be snapped up cheap. I bid online for a Futaba frequency module TP-FSM to go in my 9ch classic xmtr FP-T9VAP. The module went for $75.00! New ones are $99.99. Amazing. Crystals are also spendy. All for the sake of the glorious spread spectrum 2.4 gHz craze. Anyway, FM works so well that I'm glad to have all the cards on the frequency board to choose from. Eric
Yup
We used those FM radios for many years, and outside of frequency control, they worked quite well. Some 20 years ago, I did have a LOT of problems with electrical noise from my brush type high power electric models causing radio interference though. One model used 38 Nicad cells in series to power an Astroflight geared 90 brush type motor. Interference was so bad, that radio only had about 10 or 20 feet of range, with the transmitter antenna fully extended. Took a lot of work to make it flyable.

Nowdays, when you go to the larger model airplane fun flies, very few if any people are flying 72 Mhz. In fact, at a lot of those fun flies, only 2.4 Ghz radios are allowed. At our club's fun fly last summer, I manned the frequency control table for 72 Mhz for several hours. Out of about 40 pilots, NO ONE had a 72 Mhz radio!
kyleservicetech is offline  
Old 12-08-2013, 07:47 AM
  #103  
edray999
Eric R
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 22
Default FM Receiver noise

As an aside, I was having fits with noise in my Stryker F27c which I tried to fix by rerouting the fm antenna, etc. Nothing helped. Finally Mike Diffendaffer of BARKS in Boise told me to wrap the BEC line from the ESC through a ferrite toroid. That stopped the noise The ESC is such a noisy device that spikes of any number of frequencies were being sent into my receiver through the BEC wires. I made 5 loops through the toroid - that's all the extension length I had but it was enough.
edray999 is offline  
Old 12-08-2013, 09:34 AM
  #104  
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 12,370
Default

Originally Posted by edray999 View Post
As an aside, I was having fits with noise in my Stryker F27c which I tried to fix by rerouting the fm antenna, etc. Nothing helped. Finally Mike Diffendaffer of BARKS in Boise told me to wrap the BEC line from the ESC through a ferrite toroid. That stopped the noise The ESC is such a noisy device that spikes of any number of frequencies were being sent into my receiver through the BEC wires. I made 5 loops through the toroid - that's all the extension length I had but it was enough.
That's why many ESC's have toroid coils in the Rx lead ...

Nigel
solentlife is offline  
Old 12-08-2013, 03:40 PM
  #105  
AEAJR
Community Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY, USA
Posts: 5,827
Cool

Originally Posted by edray999 View Post
Nobody wants to discuss FM radios anymore? I think they're great for two reasons: 1) they work, have cross channel mixes and great range, and 2) I have one already and it's free.

What I wonder is why there aren't tons of xtals and xmtrs waiting to be snapped up cheap. I bid online for a Futaba frequency module TP-FSM to go in my 9ch classic xmtr FP-T9VAP. The module went for $75.00! New ones are $99.99. Amazing. Crystals are also spendy. All for the sake of the glorious spread spectrum 2.4 gHz craze. Anyway, FM works so well that I'm glad to have all the cards on the frequency board to choose from. Eric
Happy to talk 72 MHz FM radios any time. Both of my Futaba 9C Supers were originally on 72 MHz and I still have a bunch of planes still on 72 MHz.

I have seen 72 MHz receivers going for very reasonable prices on the used markets, especially when sold with an FM radio. There are huge bargains to be had. I have been giving away selling my FM stuff cheap to club members as I convert to 2.4. I got my money's worth out of them.

There are LOTs of FM radios available on the used market. Don't know why you are having problems finding them.

However the more advanced FM radios were module based and a lot of people who simply convert them to 2.4 GHz and keep them, as I have.
AEAJR is offline  
Old 12-08-2013, 04:24 PM
  #106  
yorkiepap
Member
 
yorkiepap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SW Pa.
Posts: 109
Default

I'm another 'ol fart who still uses 72mhz & I also have the 2.4ghz Spektrum. I have one of my 10X's set up with 72 for the smaller warbirds & trainers, & the other on 2.4 for the larger warbirds & gliders. Gonna also use the 2.4 for my newest venture....."off-the-water", with a recently ordered HK Skipper. When I joined our club a couple years ago with my bro', probably half the members(the 'ol farts) were still on 72 as is my bro' still today with his Futaba FG Series 5-7ch Tx's. I have the 72mhz 10X setup with a SelScan module & use nothing but JR-790 SelScan Rx's so I can simply change ch at the field if necessary. We have a large ch pin board that the members use very effectively so as not to have mixups. The club is very careful to insure everyone complies with the rules regarding the posting of your channel pin. Since I've had no issues with 72, I'll keep using it....works for me.

Denny
yorkiepap is offline  
Old 12-08-2013, 06:08 PM
  #107  
AEAJR
Community Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY, USA
Posts: 5,827
Default

I would estimate that about 25% of our members are still on 72 MHz. But, like most clubs there is a core that is very active and then there are those who only fly occasionally.

I would say 90% of the very active and the newest pilots are all on 2.4 Ghz. This leaves the 72 MHz band very open for those still on 72 MHz.

Many of our newer members don't even know about frequency control as the are on 2.4.
AEAJR is offline  
Old 12-08-2013, 11:09 PM
  #108  
yorkiepap
Member
 
yorkiepap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SW Pa.
Posts: 109
Default

Hey Ed,
Your % estimation is probably accurate with most clubs. Our club is one of a mixed bag & surprisingly, the 50% still on 72 are very active flying several days a week. Most of them do use 2.4 also depending on the model/flying style. ALL the youngsters(<50 to me) use 2.4.

Denny
yorkiepap is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 06:12 AM
  #109  
AEAJR
Community Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY, USA
Posts: 5,827
Default

So, if you want to talk about 72 MHz receiver questions or issues (remember the topic is receivers) just ask.
AEAJR is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 03:37 PM
  #110  
edray999
Eric R
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 22
Default

What is your opinion of the advantages and disadvantages of 2.4 gHz?
edray999 is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 06:42 PM
  #111  
AEAJR
Community Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY, USA
Posts: 5,827
Default

Advantage - No frequency conflict!!!!! That's it!

Disadvantage? - use a little more power and need a little more care during installation, especially in a carbon fuselage.

You can debate all sorts of other things but for me, that's it.

Naturally all new development is in 2.4 so things like telemetry are showing up in 2.4, but I don't know that that has anything to do with the frequency or just that that is where the development is being done. Don't see why you could not do telemetry with 72 MHz.


Both work!
AEAJR is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 07:43 PM
  #112  
rcers
Super Contributor
 
rcers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Trophy Club TX
Posts: 6,314
Default

Originally Posted by edray999 View Post
What is your opinion of the advantages and disadvantages of 2.4 gHz?
For me the list is much longer than Ed's. I have been flying (started in Burley Idaho!) at the age of 14. So I am no stranger to 72MHz and all that went along with it. I started before the "narrow" band 72MHz stuff too...

All in my humble opinion.

Pros
  • Zero worries about channels, frequency conflicts and frequency boards
  • No shoot downs
  • No more long exposed antennas on models or TX's
  • Telemetry - it is great to know actual voltages, altitudes and current - all while flying!
  • I feel very connected to my planes (super low latency)
  • Interference rejection (always had a channel or two on 72MHz that were unusable at fields, no more)
  • Lower costs
  • Required to fly at mega events
  • Multiple flight lines at large events with zero worries
  • Frequency hopping and automated channel selection
  • Simply the most reliable, stable, solid RC RF link ever - period

Cons
  • CF issues with some models (largely addressed now)
  • Power requirements of the airborne equipment now much more important as the minimum boot voltage on 2.4 is higher (for the most part)


I was an early adopter of 2.4GHz, and the advantages told me the future of the hobby had just changed with the release of air 2.4GHz system(s). It was clear to me within 2 weeks of getting my DX6 from Spektrum that the future was dramatically going to change. I was right.


Mike
rcers is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 07:45 PM
  #113  
rcers
Super Contributor
 
rcers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Trophy Club TX
Posts: 6,314
Default

Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
...Naturally all new development is in 2.4 so things like telemetry are showing up in 2.4, but I don't know that that has anything to do with the frequency or just that that is where the development is being done. Don't see why you could not do telemetry with 72 MHz.
You could but would never recover the cost of R&D as the RC gang has largely switched.

Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
...Both work!
Yep no question. They do both work but one is a bit better, IMHO.

Mike
rcers is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 07:50 PM
  #114  
kyleservicetech
Super Contributor
 
kyleservicetech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 8,952
Default

Originally Posted by rcers View Post
For me the list is much longer than Ed's. I have been flying (started in Burley Idaho!) at the age of 14. So I am no stranger to 72MHz and all that went along with it. I started before the "narrow" band 72MHz stuff too...

All in my humble opinion.

Pros
  • Zero worries about channels, frequency conflicts and frequency boards
  • No shoot downs
  • No more long exposed antennas on models or TX's
  • Telemetry - it is great to know actual voltages, altitudes and current - all while flying!
  • I feel very connected to my planes (super low latency)
  • Interference rejection (always had a channel or two on 72MHz that were unusable at fields, no more)
  • Lower costs
  • Required to fly at mega events
  • Multiple flight lines at large events with zero worries
  • Frequency hopping and automated channel selection
  • Simply the most reliable, stable, solid RC RF link ever - period

Cons
  • CF issues with some models (largely addressed now)
  • Power requirements of the airborne equipment now much more important as the minimum boot voltage on 2.4 is higher (for the most part)


I was an early adopter of 2.4GHz, and the advantages told me the future of the hobby had just changed with the release of air 2.4GHz system(s). It was clear to me within 2 weeks of getting my DX6 from Spektrum that the future was dramatically going to change. I was right.


Mike
Yup
And add to the above list, if you're using the Spektrum technology, their "Model Match" feature. This feature absolutely prevents you from taking off with the wrong model selected in your transmitter. If the transmitter model selection doesn't match your model ready to take off, nothing works.

(Guess you could still hand launch a sailplane on a tow line though!! Some 30 years ago, I learned to move the sticks on my transmitter before launching a sailplane. Still do it today on my electric models. Don't ask. )
kyleservicetech is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 07:52 PM
  #115  
pizzano
Behold The Renaissance
 
pizzano's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: So. Calif
Posts: 2,316
Default

Originally Posted by rcers View Post
For me the list is much longer than Ed's. I have been flying (started in Burley Idaho!) at the age of 14. So I am no stranger to 72MHz and all that went along with it. I started before the "narrow" band 72MHz stuff too...

All in my humble opinion.

Pros
  • Zero worries about channels, frequency conflicts and frequency boards
  • No shoot downs
  • No more long exposed antennas on models or TX's
  • Telemetry - it is great to know actual voltages, altitudes and current - all while flying!
  • I feel very connected to my planes (super low latency)
  • Interference rejection (always had a channel or two on 72MHz that were unusable at fields, no more)
  • Lower costs
  • Required to fly at mega events
  • Multiple flight lines at large events with zero worries
  • Frequency hopping and automated channel selection
  • Simply the most reliable RC RF link ever - period
Cons
  • CF issues with some models (largely addressed now)
  • Power requirements of the airborne equipment now much more important as the minimum boot voltage on 2.4 is higher (for the most part)

I was an early adopter of 2.4GHz, and the advantages told me the future of the hobby had just changed with the release of air 2.4GHz system(s). It was clear to me within 2 weeks of getting my DX6 from Spektrum that the future was dramatically going to change. I was right.


Mike
I'll add just one more.....no more collections of various crystals to manage or loose track of.....
pizzano is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 07:58 PM
  #116  
rcers
Super Contributor
 
rcers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Trophy Club TX
Posts: 6,314
Default

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Yup
And add to the above list, if you're using the Spektrum technology, their "Model Match" feature. This feature absolutely prevents you from taking off with the wrong model selected in your transmitter. If the transmitter model selection doesn't match your model ready to take off, nothing works
Yep Model Match is truely awesome. Saved my bacon once, and cost me another mistake as I rebound to the wrong model with the wrong setup. Still do a pre-flight check!

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
(Guess you could still hand launch a sailplane on a tow line though!! Some 30 years ago, I learned to move the sticks on my transmitter before launching a sailplane. Still do it today on my electric models. Don't ask. )
Dude - Me too! I think everyone must do that once. One time. I also wacked the back of my head on a self launch but flew the whole flight with half a stab.

That was an amazing plane.

Mike
rcers is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 08:07 PM
  #117  
AEAJR
Community Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY, USA
Posts: 5,827
Default

All good points boys.

RCERS - most of your pros fall under the "no channel conflict" that I posted. Most of the others are benefits of no channel conflict.

There is no question that if you are going to start in RC now you go to 2.4 GHz. I would never suggest to any new pilot that he buy new 72 MHz equipment, assuming you could find any.

And I would not recommend buying used 72 MHz equipment unless you plan to upgrade it to 2.4 GHz. Although you can get some pretty nice 72 MHz radios with a pile of 72 MHz receivers pretty cheap these days.

The RC world has moved beyond 72 MHz. But if you are currently flying on 72 MHz and feel no lack, keep flying. The airwaves are getting less and less crowded for you.

If you are new, ship 72 and go to 2.4.


edit: Just for kicks I went to the RCUniverse for sales section and looked at radios:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/category.cfm?catID=29

I had to get to page 3 before I found anything 72 MHz and that was a electron 6 receiver for $25.

You can find a bit more on RCGroups for sale but till not a lot - most have been upgraded to 2.4 GHz.
http://www.rcgroups.com/aircraft-gen...ment-fs-w-215/
AEAJR is offline  
Old 12-17-2013, 10:38 PM
  #118  
edray999
Eric R
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 22
Default 72 MHz Crystals

A question for AEAJR:

Where can I find used Rx crystals for 72 MHz?
edray999 is offline  
Old 12-17-2013, 10:51 PM
  #119  
xmech2k
Ya got any Beeman's?
 
xmech2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,099
Default

Check here and here.
xmech2k is offline  
Old 12-17-2013, 11:03 PM
  #120  
AEAJR
Community Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY, USA
Posts: 5,827
Default

Why only used crystals? New too expensive?
AEAJR is offline  
Old 05-27-2014, 06:46 PM
  #121  
Hover Master
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: El Monte California
Posts: 9
Default

I see this is a very old thread but if some Pilot out there sees this could you point me into the direction so I can find the different type 2.4 receivers IE Spectrum Type DSM and SLT Fast and all the other types why so many what talks to what,
Being a PCM pilot using and understanding you can only use Brand with brand IE JR to JR receiver when using PCM. I am so confused on all the different names for 2.4,
is there a place or forum that breaks down this new tech and who can talk to whom on this 2.4 galaxy.
Hover Master is offline  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:07 PM
  #122  
AEAJR
Community Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY, USA
Posts: 5,827
Cool

Originally Posted by Hover Master View Post
I see this is a very old thread but if some Pilot out there sees this could you point me into the direction so I can find the different type 2.4 receivers IE Spectrum Type DSM and SLT Fast and all the other types why so many what talks to what,
Being a PCM pilot using and understanding you can only use Brand with brand IE JR to JR receiver when using PCM. I am so confused on all the different names for 2.4,
is there a place or forum that breaks down this new tech and who can talk to whom on this 2.4 galaxy.
This thread is probably your best resource and much of what you ask is answered here. We can also address your questions.

The simple answer is to pick the radio you like and buy the receivers of the same brand you are 90% there. In some brands they have two or three flavors of 2.4 receiver. It is pretty easy to tell which receivers go with which radios. Stay within that brand and you will do fine.

The thread may have been started a while back but I update the content from time to time to keep it current.

As stated in the article in the first post:

2.4 GHz AKA Spread Spectrum

A few years ago radios were introduced on the 2.4 GHz band. These systems are also referred to as spread spectrum systems because they can operate using more than one frequency in the 2.4 GHz band in order to avoid channel conflict and interference from other 2.4 GHz sources.

First they were available for surface craft and later for aircraft. This discussion will focus on the aircraft use of 2.4 GHz and how it deferrers from the older but still widely used 72 MHz systems.
The greatest benefit to 2.4 GHz systems offer over 72 MHz systems is that we no longer have to be concerned with frequency control. The radios on the 2.4 GHz band automatically resolve any conflicts so that multiple radios can be on 2.4 GHz without conflict. This is done by binding the radio and the receiver. The receiver records the ID of the radio and will only listen to signals coming from that radio. In this way it will ignore other 2.4 GHz signals coming from other radios, as well as other 2.4 GHz sources.

If for no other reason, this makes 2.4 GHz very desirable. Most new radio systems for RC use are being introduced on the 2.4 GHz band.

In most cases 2.4 GHz receivers are brand specific. That is to say that if you fly a Spektrum Radio you need to purchase a Spektrum receiver. Even if your Futaba receiver is 2.4 GHz it won’t work with the Spektrum radio. There have been some recent introductions of “clone” receivers but they are so new to the market that I can’t say how reliable they are so I am giving you a strong recommendation to stay with same brand radios and receivers for 2.4 GHz systems.


In post 86:

[QUOTE=AEAJR;920219]

COMPATIBLE RECEIVERS

In the days of 72 MHz we had lots of compatible receivers available and they worked well. It was not unusual to fly a Futaba, JR, Airtronics, Hitec radio and mix Hitec, Berg, GWS or some other brands of compatible receivers. They worked well.

2.4 GHz shows up and you have to buy the same brand receiver as radio or nothing works. But that is changing. Compatible receivers are popping up all over the place. The early ones were iffy, but today many are receiving very good reports.

FrSky - excellent reputation - has receivers for Futaba FASST and Hitec A-FHSS

HobbyKing/Orange has DSM2, DSMX and FASST compatibles

Lemon has Spektrum compatibles

I think Corona has compatibles. for Futaba and maybe Spektrum too.

Now Hitec releases the Aurora 9X and we are going the other way. the Aurora 9X includes A-FHSS, their own protocol, and SLT which is used by Hobbico's Tactic Radios, so Aurora 9X owners can fly the Hobbico Tactic receivers and the TX-R planes.

I have 2 Futaba 9C Super radios that I like. I have 72 MHz (ch 35 and 40) as well as Futaba FASST and Spektrum DSM2 modules for them. I have planes with 72 MHz, Spektrum 2.4 receivers and Futaba 2.4 receivers.

I have now purchased an Orange FASST receiver - have not tried it yet but reports have been good.

And I am about to buy some FrSky FASST receivers - getting great reports

So, what are your thoughts on compatible 2.4 receivers? Ready to make the leap? Perhaps you have some experience to share?

Inquiring minds want to know.[/QUOTE]

Following post 86 is a lively discussion about compatible receivers.


I think if you look these over you will get a much better idea of the current state of receivers and your options. then you will be better able to ask your questions and understand the answers.


But the bottom line is this, if you want things to be simple, buy a radio and buy receivers of the same brand and type. Very little to know or be concerned about. The terms are different but it is not all that different from the days of 72 MHz. It only gets complicated if you make it complicated by trying to match up off brand components, just like the 72 MHz days.

Last edited by AEAJR; 05-27-2014 at 07:29 PM.
AEAJR is offline  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:24 PM
  #123  
kyleservicetech
Super Contributor
 
kyleservicetech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 8,952
Default

Originally Posted by Hover Master View Post
I see this is a very old thread but if some Pilot out there sees this could you point me into the direction so I can find the different type 2.4 receivers IE Spectrum Type DSM and SLT Fast and all the other types why so many what talks to what,
Being a PCM pilot using and understanding you can only use Brand with brand IE JR to JR receiver when using PCM. I am so confused on all the different names for 2.4,
is there a place or forum that breaks down this new tech and who can talk to whom on this 2.4 galaxy.
If you're looking to buy new equipment, right now, Spektrum has a big share of the market.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71276
kyleservicetech is offline  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:27 PM
  #124  
AEAJR
Community Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY, USA
Posts: 5,827
Cool

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
If you're looking to buy new equipment, right now, Spektrum has a big share of the market.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71276

To my best observation, Spektrum and Futaba are the top two brands but I have no hard market data to back that.

It will vary by geography, type of flying, who the local dealer is, etc. Some clubs will be mostly Spektrum, others mostly Futaba, others mostly . Our club has them all.
AEAJR is offline  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:50 PM
  #125  
JetPlaneFlyer
Super Contributor
 
JetPlaneFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 6,120
Default

Originally Posted by Hover Master View Post
is there a place or forum that breaks down this new tech and who can talk to whom on this 2.4 galaxy.
Here is a good article on 2.4Ghz technology and how it differs and improves upon narrow band systems such as 72MHz. The article is slightly out of date insomuch that it doesn't have some of the newer systems listed and also doesn't have Spektrum's current protocol 'DSMX' covered (which is a combination of DSSS and FHSS), but it's a good read none the less.

http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/spreadspectrum01.shtml
JetPlaneFlyer is offline  

Quick Reply: What You Need To Know About Receivers


Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.

Page generated in 0.10049 seconds with 10 queries