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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 02-28-2010, 03:18 AM   #101
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Default Which EDF Provides An Advantage...& Why?

I am curious what you see as an advantage to the Schubeler you did not see in the StuMax?

Its time to step up with specific differentials. Remember the goal is to fly 9 maneuvers, 7 in addition to takeoff and landing.

One flight plan includes a modified Immelmann called the LABS Maneuver:


The other flight plan incorporates a modified Chandelle for a RASCAL release:



Both of which represent the highest altitude in each flight plan.

I feel I should provide readers a wee more data...

A). The Schubeler twin Boeing 767 weighs 36 pounds AUW.

B). The StuMax single Grumman F9F weighs 19 pounds AUW.

What did you see in the Schubeler's race track performance that was not seen in the StuMax's F9F flight performance? Tell us what
it was you like more about the Schubeler than the Stumax 110-52 with respect to the two videos?

Look at the two of them again before you reply... Think in terms of power management across time... The time consumed in flying 8
maneuvers prior to landing. Perhaps it would be good to revisit the motor utilized and the batteries utilized in each config.

Remember its all about duration and power to complete the two flight plans that typically require 7 to 8 minutes to complete...plus
whatever margin for interruption and an oops factor.

While this might be a stretch from what is flown on a regular basis, it is straight forward and not a difficult thing to do. We need more
scale competitors flying electric.... I look forward to feedback from everyone.

Schubeler:

StuMax:


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Old 03-01-2010, 03:07 AM   #102
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Default Thanks Boeing :^)

Mike Lombardi, Boeing's Manager of Corporate Archives came through for us with a multi-view of the B-47E-IV. Now, I can settle
down and finish the fuselage cross sections so we can get on with construction.

Airfoils at tip and root are the same BAC145. This serves as validation of my airfoil slection shown earlier. I chose a slightly more rounded
front bottom 25% because 6 degrees is very blunt with this airfroil when sitting on the ramp for take-off with the rake.


Boeing chose this modified reflex laminar flow often found on high performance gliders. Remember to disregard the 25% CG indicator
on the image below as it is wrong...CG is at trailing edge of the root.

Root incidence is 6 degrees.





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Old 03-01-2010, 06:03 AM   #103
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Default B-47 Drawing

Hi Ed!

Did Lombardi send you a (readable) side view of the fuselage so you can locate the cross-sections shown in your #102 post from front to rear along the center plane of the fuselage? If so, could you email me a copy; if not, could you email a more legible version of the cross-section drawing, as it is not possible to read the station numbers in the posted version? Also, how far forward of 'nose' is station zero?

Regards,

Dave Plummer
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Old 03-01-2010, 03:25 PM   #104
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Default D'line Weight....D'line Weight

Originally Posted by Capt. Midnight View Post
Hi Ed! Did Lombardi send you a (readable) side view of the fuselage...as it is not possible to read
the station numbers... Also, how far forward of 'nose' is station zero? Regards, Dave Plummer
Hi Dave,

Already ahead of you... Please lets not pile on Mike Lombardi.... ;^) I had second thoughts about posting this good news until
I got an answer to my last question of Mike. Cat out of bag thrown along the side of a road is a dead cat...

First of all, I always knew of station "0" as furthest forward surface of any aircraft measured at right angles to the vertical center
line or on most drawings the line identified with a CL.

In all cases...when initially viewing what is "perceived as an acceptable" line art drawing, the first thing anyone "should" do is draw
"multiple horizontal" lines at right angles to the CL of a drawing.

These datum lines provide measuable differential between all drawings acquired for use in a project. For illustration purposes I have
shown additional lines drawn weighted much higher than would be the case on duplicates used for actual work up.

In most cases, these are drawn with a #2 to #5 mechanical pencil to minimize size. Modern copying has no problem in seeing a lightly
drawn polymer lead 2 or 5 weighted line.

Now, if everyone will be patient, I have asked Mike if there is a virtual file available which will permit me to enlarge the image and there
by reduce a line weight Mike's copier applied to the drawing he sent a copy of.

I have asked if there is a... .gif, .tif, .tiff, .eps, .dwg, .dxf, or .jpg image file of the original drawing. I assume the drawing at its 1:1 will
be at its original 1:100th scale.

If it was digitized at least at 400 dpi, I will be very pleased. Archival today would scan at 36k dpi or better. However in the past
corporate libraries were being slam dunked digitally just to get'r done. It could be in an early format of the 10 or more .tiff as a
worse/best case scenario.

For example municipal engineering archives are typically less than 100 dpi. The saving grace is they are huge drawings of buildings
so the files can be manipulated without falling apart. A 1:100th original at 100 dpi .tiff is not.

This as witnessed in the weight of the line in the copy I received...three 11 x 17 pages worth.

At worst, I hope to receive another copy of the original replicated on a large format Xerographic scan to printer I am absolutely
sure Mike has in his department.

As for a side image, yes. Lets be patient and see if Mike's reply has more good news before you go blind trying to translate
annotations. Personally, I don't worry about that.

Typically, I enlarge an image to the meaned scale of "all" drawings collected. Now, render image as a transparency retaining CL
and any datum lines available. Now, simply move along the length of the fuselage until it "fits".

Remember you are building a flying scale model, not a museum scale model. It is not that we acquire a "better than" drawing
downstream from when a project is begun. The value is we gain validation and contribution to what we meaned from all the
previous drawings and have worked from.

Perhaps there is now a greater sense of why I spent so much time beating on the previous drawings to arrive at something
which resembled photo documentation more closely before starting. At this point we are plugging in additional data...not starting over.

At some point you must stop engineering and start building...we are very, very close to that as of 03/01/2010 @ 8:35 AM CST. The
nacelles have been beaten on for the last three days...fruit of the
labor comes soon.


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Old 03-01-2010, 03:58 PM   #105
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I thought of you Ed while flying into SEA yesterday we went right over Boeing field and low and behold guess what I saw sitting right below us!

Tomorrow night we have a private event at the Museum. It will be great!
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Old 03-01-2010, 06:50 PM   #106
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Default Reference Lines for Layout and Lofting

Hi Ed!

I'm not sure I understand your comment about what drawings you received from Lombardi, but if you could post a list of what he sent, I'll drop him and email and see if he could send me a set. I'd like to go to the Archives office (it's only 5 miles from my house), but only persons with approved projects can enter the facility; model builders are encouraged to use other sources - a pity, because back in the early 1990s, it was possible to visit their former location and look through their files of 'stuff' on various aircraft; and they'd send you sooper B&W glossies of various aircraft for a nominal fee. Oh, for the good old days ...

In all the years I worked on Boeing aircraft (C-97, B-50, B-52) in the tooling department, I observed that the 'zero' reference point was always a fair distance (say, 10-30 inches) ahead of the nose structure; this facilitated development of drawings, and allowed for configuration changes to the aircraft. I don't think Boeing's practice was universally followed (e.g., some aircraft designs have the zero reference at a particular location, say, the plane of the propellor, etc.), but I believe many of the major aircraft companies used the same technique. My guess is the the zero reference 'station' for the B-47 was probably 20-30 inches forward of the nose structure.

RSVP when you have time; thanks,

Dave P.
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:03 PM   #107
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Default Low & Behold.... or Low & WB-47E Below

Originally Posted by rcers View Post
I thought of you Ed while flying into SEA yesterday we went right over Boeing field and low and behold guess
what I saw sitting right below us! Tomorrow night we have a private event at the Museum. It will be great!

That's one of, if not "the" last, WB-47E to enter into the U.S.A.F. catch but do not release program.

Its still U.S.A.F. property on loan to Seattle Museum Of Flight. As you can see its caged in on the
lawn to make sure its parts stay in Seattle. Enjoy your visit to MOF. I will be there in the not too
distant future.


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Old 03-01-2010, 07:08 PM   #108
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Default

Dave P.

I heard from Mike early this morning. Its not been scanned...yet. Yet, is the operative word. Are we
to assume there is something in the works? I have asked, but have not received a reply...yet :^)

More to follow...I am sure. :^)


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Old 03-01-2010, 07:36 PM   #109
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Default Drawings Received From Boeing SEA

Originally Posted by Capt. Midnight View Post
Hi Ed! I'm not sure I understand your comment about what drawings you received from Lombardi.
In all the years I worked on Boeing aircraft (C-97, B-50, B-52) in the tooling department, I observed that the 'zero' reference point
was always a fair distance (say, 10-30 inches) ahead of the nose structure...RSVP when you have time; thanks, Dave P.
Dave,

I believe the difference between technical drawings you used in your work at Boeing and the artist renderings we are permitted to
view as modeling resources is the source of differentials between the absolute "0" point. Technical drawings for maintenance and
assembly are rarely complete airframe and focused on an explicit component or area being worked within.

With as busy as the inside of the monster is (and rearly seen by modelers), you need a map to find what is desired to work on
amidst everything over, under, and around it. Especially with respect to the multiple wiring harnesses.

Dave, I beleive if you have access as a retiree with respect to "will call" services from Mike's Archive Department, you should exercise
that right ASAP... :^) I assume the 1/100th drawing is whatever that dim equates to from the 1:1 because the copy I was mailed is
on three 11x17 pages with margin.

It is my personal opinion the media your image should be in is virtual as a .dxf or .dwg so the line weight can be edited along with the
overall size of any image desired for resizing downstream.

My reply to Mike said I assumed he had 36" or greater digital scanning capability since most technical and marketing masters are 36"
or greater in layout. The drawing Mike sent is the detailed layout for a 1/100th display model created by the Boeing modeling department
as representation of the B-47E :^)

Its more than it is less...a miniature B-47E drawing. Especially with respect to nacelle & fuselage cross sections.


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Old 03-01-2010, 10:04 PM   #110
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Default B-47 Drawings

Hi Ed!

I've emailed Lombardi asking if I can obtain a copy of the drawing they mailed you; it seems to be just like the drawing I obtained several years ago (for a 'display model' of the B-50). I offered to come by to pick it up, but there are no special privileges given to Boeing retirees. The Archives office is about 5 miles from my home, in an office park; I visited once some years ago when it was still possible to gain entrance; prior to their location at the present site, they were across the street from the Museum of Flight, in an old credit union office at what we called The Developmental Center.

The drawings I referred to were just the normal 'old-style' blue/white prints for various parts of the several aircraft that needed different types of template and master tools; they were not useable for maintenance (except in very rare instances). However, in building some master tools, assembly jigs, etc., it was often necessary to refer to various reference drawings that showed all the station, water and buttock lines for the fuselage, and for various major assemblies (wings, vert. stab., etc.). An example of a station drawing for the B-47 wing is shown in A.T. Lloyd's book.

I have no CAD-type capability in my Mac computer (or in my own skill mix), so have to work from dimensioned drawings or other renderings to draft my own construction drawings. I'm still using the drafting instruments I had when I started engineering at the Univ. of Washington ... unbelievable!!!

If I get anything from Lombardi, I'll let you know.

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 03-02-2010, 12:30 AM   #111
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Default Tools

Originally Posted by Capt. Midnight View Post
Hi Ed! I've emailed Lombardi asking if I can obtain a copy of the drawing they mailed you... I have
no CAD capability in my Mac computer...so have to work from dimensioned drawings...I'm still using the drafting instruments I had
when I started engineering at the Univ. of Washington...If I get anything from Lombardi, I'll let you know.
Cheers, Dave P.
David,

If you ask for and receive a .dwg, .dxf, or .eps file format and the image can be placed onto a CD and the file forwarded to me in its 1:1
size and clarity. I could then convert it to a .dwg, .dxf and reweighed line value to permit drawing to be resized exactly as you need to
model your B-47.

This would create a template set from which you would cut parts after you print and iron to face of balsa sheet, or paste onto phenolic
to paste to face of foam for hot wiring your fuselage, nacelle, vertical fin, wing and horizontal stab.


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Old 03-02-2010, 07:44 AM   #112
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Default D'nacelle, D'nacelle...

Gee whiz......Murphy, this is suddenly getting real...


FSA (fan sweep area) is X. For proper acceleration (aka ground roll) I must maintain a minimum of
85% of X in the bifurcated exhaust.




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Old 03-02-2010, 08:06 AM   #113
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Nice looking part. Is it 1/2 of a nacelle exhaust exit

THE B-2 Worlds most expensive airplane.
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:26 AM   #114
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Default Multiple Parts Make The "Hole".

Originally Posted by Alpea42 View Post
Nice looking part. Is it 1/2 of a nacelle exhaust exit
I suggest anyone considering replicating our project create an image index for reference. Use enlarged thumbnails and click to enlarge
each when and where that applies.

The nacelle is comprised of multiple pieces. What is shown above is a new pilot cut process being investigated by a friend of mine (name
and address to be disclosed when he's satisfied with process and ready to take orders).

Remember this entire thread is a work in process that will on occassion be in contradiction to the end process and components utilized
in our B-47 airframes. This is scratch building project, yes we are aware it is amazing how convenient it has been to utilize many of the
off-the-shelf items being shown here. It saves time and money.

I am again focused on the fuselage. I hate jumping around until a portion of the design has been completed...but resources continue to
pour in. After I received the drawing from Boeing I need to take the time to incorporate cross sections before my real world occupation
slows this project down.

I have a group of CD borne manuals inbound which should permit rapid inclusion of whatever is contained within them found to be of value.


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Old 03-02-2010, 02:22 PM   #115
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Default B4 Leaving D'nacelle

I need to repost an image so you are not confused by the nacelle internal bifurcated dog leg error. The above duct lines drawn by
my friend are not representative of the actual shape. He placed a dog leg into the duct path.

My friend is working on laser cutting the "exterior" of the nacelles, not the interior shape. Bifurcated ducts are hot wired, not cut
with a laser. Templates representing three (3) hot wire cut perimeters to the rear of the EDF and four perimeters representing hot
wire cuts ahead of EDF are placed either side of each foam section and their interior relieved to provide an optimum duct shape.

This is my adjusted bifurcation nacelle without datum lines I sent him to work with, Remember what I posted about pending
"adjustment" to exhaust outlet equaling 85%, not shown in this illustration.
A:

With the addition of red datum lines to show what lines up with what...
B:

Per prior posts, optimum ROG performance will be the result of a rear exhaust area (twin exhaust)
with no less than the sum equal to 85% of FSA (Fan Sweep Area). 85% has been identified as the
most effecient to provide greatest power during the B-47's approach to runway threashold.



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Old 03-03-2010, 03:08 AM   #116
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Default B-47 Drawings from Boeing

Hi Ed!

Wow! you are sure making progress on your B-47 - it's sure to be a winner!!

I've been having no luck getting a 1/100th-scale drawing from Boeing Archives; called Tom Lubbersmeyer today, but only got a voice mail. Just to be sure I'm asking for the drawing your received: did they send you a 'hard copy' or an electronic image; what did they charge you for the drawing; and did you have to submit some kind of filled-out form or other "application" (kind of like the Smithsonian) to get the drawing?

If you get a copy of T.O. 1B-47E-2-1, could you let me know the source?

Regards,

Dave P.
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:07 AM   #117
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Dave,

I now seriously doubt I will receive any further cooperation from Boeing Archives. The three page photo copy of the original 1/100th
drawing was of such contrast it can not be enlarged without the text blowing apart. This is why I returned and asked for a digital image
file in either .dwg, .dxf, .eps, and suggeted you do the same as it could easily be printed for your use and the digital for mine.

My previous communications with B.A.D., Boeing Archives Department, established a communications pathway that Mike responded to
many weeks downstream from when I initiated it.

Communication with M.O.F.'s director relative to the 80A on their floor and the drawings created for the sole purpose of Boeing's attempt
to restore it. Boeing's restoration and maintenance group at a field North of SEA and retirees were the group who restored the 80A, not
the museum.

When I contacted Boeing's restoration and preservation director he redirected me to B.A.D. who was non-responsive to my inquiries. I
ended up receiving a copy of Boeings drawings for the 80A restoration from a member of "Wings Of Peace" who lived in Norway.

When I received Mike's email with the drawing attachment, it was out of the blue and unexpected.


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Old 03-03-2010, 06:25 AM   #118
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Default Follow-up

Hi Ed!

I wasn't thinking Boeing Archives would have the copy of the T.O. - just thought you might have found a source for it. I searched quite a bit, but couldn't find one, although the B-47 Stratojet Association has some pages from the T.O. (Jim Diamond sent me a few pages).

I would still be interested to know if you had to pay Boeing for the 1/100th-scale drawing, and whether you had to submit some sort of form/application to get it, as I'm wondering if that is why I'm not getting any response from the Archives Office.

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 03-03-2010, 07:22 PM   #119
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Default Sometimes Our Patience Is Challenged

David,

I began building & flying scale models 53 years ago after dad, with great patience, shared his attention
to detail and follow-through while I impatiently observed him perform more difficult tasks as "we" ;^)
built wood rail road models.

My modeling in general began at the age of six with hand launched stick planes. I progressed to rubber
powered less than scale planes then moved to scale free flight.

I look back on those days with perfect clarity. No doubt with patience today that I rarely exhibited at
the time.

I vividly recall the moments of my father returning from working his shift at Kodak. The time of day
meant nothing back then as the family's days revolved around the evolution of dad's job as Plastics
Division Production Superintendant.



If the time of day was late, a few moments after Dad entered the house, I was then shuttled off to bed.
If it was a parentally deemed reasonable hour, and not too early after sunrise, the progression of events
led to dinner (regardless of the hour).



After dinner and a relaxing moment reading the paper and either another Phillip Morris or refill of his pipe...
time would come to gather at his fold front desk for the next in a progression of steps to make a whatever.
Believe me when I tell you patience is a learned skill, one of, if not the most important.



Its typically not difficult for most people today to envision Opi (orange haired hyper-active) the on screen
son of Andy on the "Andy Griffith Show". To say Ron Howard and I share more than a few personality, and
behavior traits is definately an understatement:^)

On more than one occassion Opi's impatience led to out of control issues.



Being the only son in a Scot-Irish family where a sister (16 years my senior) in college was and has always
been "away somewhere else"... :^) I was some-what-less-than patient as the virtual "only child".



I remember when dad ordered a hand held scroll saw. It arrived packaged in a bright yellow and red box
and when opened this magical device was said to be the perfect tool with which to "release" real looking
whatevers. It was a Dremel hand held scroll saw...firsts sold 70+ years ago...


Here is the 2012 version of the Moto-Saw

Patience is always a scale modelers best friend, or enemy as it were. Patience to plan a project as best
you can to negate "surprises" which yield it a "no go" and patience to not hop around all over a project...
getting no where.

Resource management is a sticky subject on projects. Patience is required because in most cases today...
the baby was thrown out with the bath water under the heading of evolution and the cost of archival.
History is expensive....so they say.

When this started there was little, there still is.

Ed Clayman
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Old 03-03-2010, 07:30 PM   #120
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Hi Ed!

That was very interesting, but I'm not sure how it is related to the questions I asked.

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 03-04-2010, 03:52 PM   #121
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David,

I assume you ordered and are using the M.A.N. B-47D planset as a project baseline. Its vertical fin and horizontal stab arrangement
with additional support from carbon fiber vail should do very well for your B-47 project.

You asked about station locations for specific shapes. I traditionally use station numbers as a "zone" in which a shape fits. I suppose
because you used technical drawings when you worked at Boeing you tend to lean more to an explicit location on the drawing equating
to a mirrored location on your model.

I tend to weigh heavily on reminding anyone willing to pay attention to my foolishness that artists are not engineers. Engineers typically
net the worlds worst artistic work as it more often than not is explicit and harsh.

Think in terms of artist drawings as warm and fuzzy. Yes, you have my permission to join the now thousands of people considering me
either OCD, stupid, or nuts.

I recently replied to your station inquiry within my 1/10.2 B-47E-IV thread. My reply said to render the cross section background transparent
with its lines (perimeter & datum) in black. Next, align image with datum lines you established on your project control drawing. Next,
using directional control keys on your Golden Delicious move it left and right as if to "slide" along your project control drawing....until it fits.

What is it about this that is any different than standing in FedEx Office with a project control drawing at 1:1 and introducing another cross
section... its transparency lets you print the drawing at 1:1 with the new cross section in place as part of your fuselage unit set.

Lots of people appear to think because they don't use CAD they can't scratch build. This is clearly not true. I recommend the following tools
be acquired to enable a computer to work up any multiple view into a model.

People with Microsoft Operating Systems regardless of flavor: Microsoft Image Composer... (1 program)

People with an Apple operating system regardless of flavor: Any, if not all Adobe image editors falling into a group referenced as a suite
intended for editing images, photos, and text. Many of these products can function within either the Windows OS or the Apple OS.
Example: PhotoShop, Illustrator, Premier, etc.

You do not have to become an expert to use these tools...and tools they are. They are no different than a hammer and various styles of nail,
or screw driver and various style of screw.

Usually, what we as modelers need to achieve is to resize, and convert to a transparent background in order to place image on top of another
image to either add to or simply align prior to "consideration" for addition to your project control drawing.

As I have probably over illustrated on my thread...nothing remains static for long in these projects. What was assumed to be...rarely continues
to be for very long as a project moves forward. This is the real advantage of a virtual platform to work within.

Note, I did not describe any of this as high tech or even mention the C (CAD) word. In the typical Golden Delicious flavor of all this there are
built in tools (applications) which enable manipulation of .eps as well as .tif, .tiff, .gif, .png, and the last one to use ...jpg.

I am close to purchasing a portable case of Golden Delicious to edit my real world occupation presentations as well as edit my Flite-Metal
application and finishing videos.

While warming one of the seat cushions within Best Buy's Apple crate, I found all the crates come with almost everything you need and for
the most part...its free. Yes, its in the Golden Delicious crate...which until you realize they come with this they may seem more expensive
than an International Business Machine format.

Check it out, your modeling ROI will grow... ;^)


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Old 03-05-2010, 06:25 PM   #122
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Default LADO 60-2 Electric Gear Wanted

This post is no longer an active inquiry.

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Old 03-05-2010, 06:26 PM   #123
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Default LADO 60-2 Electric Gear Wanted

Just received a CD I ordered from Italy entitled...

T.O. 1B-47E-2-2
Boeing B-47E
Maintenance Instructions
Airframe Group
USAF Model
B-47-B through B-47 - E
10 February 1956

Moving on to the fuselage... with the new found data ;^)

All of this and about 90 pages more cost about $10...

This is where this access hatch appears on the B-47E-IV
Details per position...
So you see how easily it is to replicate details limited only by your patience.
This T.O. deliniates the canopy down to the overhead blast curtain drawn over the pilot and co-pilot
when an atomic weapon was "delivered".



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Old 03-06-2010, 06:09 PM   #124
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Default Unwrapping An Apparent Mystery Process...

David,

I hope you do not mind the use of your name as the addressee. I intend your name as the universal recepiant. Yours with respect
to the statement you did not use a computer as a project management tool because it was perceived its use had to be with CAD.

The second is the post appearing in your 1/16th B-47 thread where someone wrote the use of foam as a serious scale component
was beyond their imagination. After giving this considerable thought, I decided to uncover...aka unwrap the mystery before going further.


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Old 03-06-2010, 06:45 PM   #125
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Hi Ed!

Can you post the address of the Italian source that you obtained the B-47 maintenance manual from?

Thanks,

Dave P.
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