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GWS Tiger Moth 400 (NPS)

Old 06-17-2013, 07:45 PM
  #1  
pizzano
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Default GWS Tiger Moth 400 (NPS)

Well, Father's Day was good to me this year. Kids dropped by and "instructed" me use the gift for a new plane.....no booze, smokes, bills, gas....ect.....they were explicit!....and intend to see the new plane next week-end.....lol

So I've finally ordered the 400 from BP Hobbies.......they were the only one of ten places I shopped on line that had the kit (with everything in it) (NPS)...the two other places that had it, had been picked over as parts for other orders....glad I called first!

Should be here by Saturday.....To start off, going to use this power system from spare parts I have:....maybe later my spare brushless 450.

GWS EPS 400D brushed (geared)
Turnigy brushed 20a ESC
GWS EP 1047 prop
7.4v 1600mah lipo

Haven't decided yet to go with 3 or 4 mini servos.....have the y-harness so could do 4. But I also have a couple of digital 9g's (mg) that could swing as a single for ailerons...we'll see.

Looking forward to putting it together/maiden....since I've only been yapping about getting one since December.....lol.

Any suggestions on the PS/build or flight aspects are welcome.....I'm new to the bi-wing build and flying....should be interesting.
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:43 PM
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First off, this is a great plane! If you build it stone stock it'll fly great.

The landing gear are weak and ugly. You'll probably want to do something about that. I'm happy to share my mods if you're interested.

My original is still flying. It's using a single 9G servo to push two ailerons. My newer one uses twin servos - one for each aileron. Didn't even need extensions for them. I'm only driving the bottom "stock" ailerons. I know of at least one guy driving a 4-aileron setup with a single 9g servo (overkill, but I didn't care much about the extra 8 grams). I prefer the twin aileron servos mainly because it opens up some much-needed room inside the plane.

I'm running a PowerUp 400 SlowFly on my newer one, and an old 2410-09Y on my older one. Both run 1300 mAh 3S LiPos.

Here's my old TM, doing its stuff last week in some choppy wind:
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:35 PM
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What Mark said,,word for word,, thank's,,saved me a mess-o-type'in,,
mine's 5-6 years old and still a blast, 450 outie 30 esc 1300-1600 3cells, 10/4.5 prop,,, Have Fun!, bubsteve
PS mark,, Great Vid,
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:31 PM
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p.s. My Tiger Moth was my first non-RTF plane. You cannot possibly have less of an idea how to proceed than I did. When I read through my posts of the time, I nearly weep with embarrassment. So ask away.
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:08 AM
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Mark.....

I'll take you up on the help offer.......for now just a few intro ?

I have not physically touched one of these, but have studied the on line instruction manuals...and have built several GWS sticks along with several ARF highwing foamies...so not a complete newbie.......lol

1) Since I'm going completely stock (even landing gear) for now, will the brushed set-up w/1047 prop and 7.4v 1600mah get her off the ground ok...I've used this set-up on Sticks and one 32" wingspan Cub (19 to 24oz) with battery)....they all seemed to have enough thrust/lift, flew fairly slow and flight times were anywhere between 10 & 15 min.'s on the Cub and 30min on the Sticks.......?

2) None of the manuals I've seen give much detail about the battery mount location and or suggested mod's......the 1600's I have are 10.5mm long and 3.5mm wide, 1.3mm thick...will this be a problem or need to be installed within the fuse.....?

3) How complicated (and functional) is it to install the aileron surface control linkage using one servo vs installing seperate servos on each wing.....?....I'm use to installing seperate servos.

4) Should I need to install the motor mount stick with any thrust angle (deflection).....I have not used any on the Sticks, but the Cubs all had a little down & right angle in the mount.

That's about it for now........I'm sure once I get her put together I'll have some more ? related to C/G and control throw angles....

Edit: fiqured I'd post here rather than PM.....maybe something discussed can be contributed to the 400 rather than all of the Pico threads I found here.......The "other" forum has plenty as well but the Pico and 400 are clustered together there as well....lol

Thanks for the help.....I'm already chomping at the bit to start this!

Last edited by pizzano; 06-18-2013 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:56 AM
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That's the GWS EPS-400C brushed motor w/gearbox? Or ...?

As to batteries, do a test fit and make sure they slide down where you want them. If not, remove some foam before you glue the halves together.

The aileron linkage isn't especially difficult to set up, and it works just fine. My only complaint at the time was my difficulty in getting all the gear wedged inside the fuse. With that in mind, I went with separate servos, embedded in the wings, for my second build. But there's nothing at all wrong with the stock setup.

I've set mine up using the angle determined by the stick mount - if any.

The only modification I made on my first one - shown flying in the video above - was a reinforced set of landing gear. Everything else - battery location, servos, etc. - was straight stock. I've since added flying wires and a few other goodies, but not because I actually needed them.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:55 AM
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The brushed motor/gearing is actually an EPS 400D (I counted the number of teeth) spur = 4x66t - pinion = 4x22t.....see:

http://www.gwsus.com/english/product...em/eps400c.htm

I may try the APC (E) 10x5 prop since they work on the Slow Sticks with the EPS 400D....I have lots of those as well......or should I go with something else?............the GWS charts show the thrust rate for the 1047 prop to be 10.69oz @7.2v and 17.88oz @10.8v.....my Slow sticks are around 18 to 20oz loaded.

I have a few 11.1v 1000mah that are 40c rated....but no 1300mah.....I have run those with the 400D on Sticks......with the 1047 prop, the motor & ESC (20A) get a little warmer than with the 7.4v but not an unacceptable range......and flight times were less w/11.1v.
The APC (E) 10x5 prop and 11.1v was more efficient and ran cooler on the Sticks than the 1047......but still ran hotter than the 7.4v.

I'll see what kind of room I have in the fuse once I place the RX and ESC in....and decide on the servo placement as you suggest. I'll also trial size the battery before glue.......!

Thanks for the info.........

Edit: By the way, I've visited this place.....but you only have the mod version details.

http://rc.markclarkson.com/?p=62

Last edited by pizzano; 06-18-2013 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:55 PM
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I haven't actually used that motor, but it should be okay. Not a rocketship, but I think it'll fly.

You're right about my blog - that's my very first non-RTF, so it dates back to before I was being thorough in my documentation. I don't have many photos of the LG mod, but I'll attach them here. I haven't any photos of it, but the front LG wires screw into the pictured reinforcing block, on the firewall.

I do NOT recommend this mod - because it's way too sturdy. Bad landings that snag gear badly enough to cause damage don't hurt the gear, they snap the frame in half. Strong tho.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:46 AM
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I understand why the gear is "not" recommended....it's beefy!.....I've got a few ideas I've tried with the Slow Sticks......I won't be "reinventing the wheel"......there's hundreds of threads everywhere on this and the Pico...so I'll keep my input simple and try not to be redundant when the build gets started.......I'll probably have more ?? than solutions.....lol

Thanks again for your advice......!
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:42 PM
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The Tiger Moth 400 arrived at my door-step as I was pulling in the drive from work at 2:30pm today...........great timing FedEx.....lol... ordered on Monday, shipped on Tuesday. Shout out to BP Hobbies in New Jersey, they not only dug through the warhouse to find the only one in their inventory, but also parts checked it and charged me $12.00 to ship FedEx to So.Cal........3 days....not bad.



I've painted the cowling Ford metalic "valve cover" blue (what I had laying around from another project) ....lol..... I'll leave the rest yellow.

Question on adhesives, this foam is different from the Slow Stick stuff. I've used Gorilla glue and ZAP foam safe CA on them but the Gorilla is very messy and the ZAP melted into the Stick foam.
Would a two-stage 5min epoxy be ok....I have that here....weight should not be an issue...?

Gonna start the build Sunday when everyone here is out of the way (need to use the dinning room table for this one) my shop bench is to narrow......I'm happy with the quality, she's lighter than I imagined so the brushed EPS 400c(D) and 3cell 1000-1300 mah should balance OK.

Havin some fun now.........!
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Old 06-23-2013, 04:29 PM
  #11  
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Default Aileron/Rudder/Elevator Hinge Question

Question for the experienced GWS builders:

I've started the build......decided to use Gorilla CA, Beacon Foam Tack and Beacon Hold the Foam adhesives.......so far so good.

Also have decided to use one single servo for the ailerons (as shown) in the manual....I've got one that's (mg) fits perfect.

Issue regarding hinges:

The photo below shows the only two things provided with the kit that resemble hinges:



The flimsy paper type on the left....and a more rigid plastic (with holes) on the right.

I'm concerned that the paper type is not strong enough (to thin) and the plastic type are not flexible enough......?
There is no mention (or photo) of the plastic ones in the instruction manual and I've yet been able to find this on line (most mention just "hinges".....what's the call here...?.....custom made....?

Thanks.....

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Old 06-23-2013, 05:40 PM
  #12  
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Fibered paper,,they last for years,, 6 years on my e-starter and still fine,, 100's of flights,bubsteve
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Old 06-23-2013, 06:20 PM
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Thanks Cooper.......paper it is!........what the heck are the plastic goodies for....?
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:45 PM
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My new one only came with the plastic hinges. My old one came with Tyvek hinges - plasticy, fibery papery stuff that they usta make floppy disk sleeves out of. I prefer the Tyvek.
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:53 PM
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Been working slow on this build.......a little more detailed than what I've put together previously:



I've dry fit several things: servos, batteries, motors, esc's...ect. Looks like I'll use the Power Up 400 brushless, 7.4v 1600mah, 10x5 APC, should get about 21oz thrust at 11amps....Tiger should be around 20oz when loaded.......she'll be a slow flyer for sure.

The most time consuming aspect so far has been the aileron/elevator/rudder assemblies.....the hinges and linkage wire fits are a bit tricky for me....so far no re-do's, but we'll see once I connect servos and test.....Gonna run to the local HS and pick up push rod connectors (easy connects) for the rudder and elevator clevis and aileron servo arms.....not going to rely on my wire bending skills and really see no need to add any more "kinks" to the rods.

At the rate I'm going, she'll be ready to ground test by next Sunday and maybe a test flight if weather holds.....gonna recruit a club buddie to walk me through the maiden and fine tune set-ups....first bi-wing so I want to get right the first time.....lol
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Old 06-27-2013, 03:58 AM
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Have all of the hinges for the surface controls installed now.....



Had a little trouble with the horizontal stabilizer lining up flush with the fuse....the two sides of the fuse did not line up very well (manufacture default), so after 3 attempts to glue set, decided to sand down level...will be my next plug-in, then the lower wing and vertical fin...kinda skipping around from the manual procedure......which leaves much to the imagination..........lol

I'm really impressed with the Beacon Hold the Foam glue on this type of foam....but it takes forever to dry...about 12 hours for a firm, flexible bond. But once it sets-up, flex and secure....and since it dries so slow, any mods required (like my issue with the horizontal stab)...a wet paper towel wipe off works well....!

Once I get the vert fin and upper wing in place, servos bonded and linkage set....I'll post another redundant TM400 photo...lol
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:09 AM
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Yeah - that section of the fuse tends to be a bit funky.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:26 AM
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LOL......amazing what a little sanding block can correct on these foam pressed issues.

You guys who are used to this, seldom mention the need (required)....lol...even at the "other" forum...lol

My experience with other foam builds applied here, (I'm kinda of a rookie at this, to some extent)........but this kit has been fun and extremely educational.

(what little experience I have) tells me making everything align and function will be the key to a successful maiden....been through this with foam Piper Cub rebuilds....more times than I care to mention....lol

So glad guys like you and other's here and "the other" forum, have been so helpfull.......thanks!
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:34 AM
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As I said, I was completely ignorant and over my head on my build. I was posting photos saying, "is this where the servos go? I can't tell!" Ask if you need anything.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:43 AM
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You and Cooper have it down to the bone.....btw you 2 and another, I've made sense out of the manual and been able to cut a few corners and concentrate on the "vitals"....sorry, but I'm an engineer, that should explain my "anal" methodology.....lol...old habits are hard to...ect...ect...ect.....lol
Thanks again for keeping an eye on me.....lol...appreciate it!

I can't wait to get her in the air.....!....been wanting this craft for a long time. But waited until my pilot skills were twice the need...lol.....I'm there now 80% ready (ROG) is the only concern...lol

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Old 06-30-2013, 06:08 PM
  #21  
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No maiden today as I planned, to many interruptions this week and I had to chase down the mini EZ connectors...LHS only had large ones.





I have tested all of the electronics, servo torque's need adjustment and ESC needs to be firmed up in the lower slot.......the cowling fit leaves much to be desired (like many have mentioned) and I had to shorten the motor mounting stick due to the brushless motor size in order to align cowling to fit fuse screw locations.....glue & screw the struts...balance and adjust C/G...............looks like a dry run will be this week and maiden on Saturday.....I hope!

Add: The vitals cab compartment lacks space (another told-u-so item).....with the ESC out of the way, will need to bundle up and secure all the spaghetti and make sure there will be no binding issues since the EZ's and control rods on the lower wing do hang down more than expected.
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:42 PM
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mclarkson, cooper and Robbins.....any other TM400 builders.....

I've got the build complete......But having trouble with C/G.

She weights in at a 15.7oz's, that's with the 7.4v 1600mah, Power Up 400 Sport (Heads Up RC) brushless, 30amp esc, APC 10x5E, stock landing gear and lots of glue....lol...I have the battery and esc as far forward they can go without hanging out of the plane.....the GWS specs weight loaded should be btw 17.6 to 19.4oz's with stock motor.

Everything I've read states C/G any where from 0 to 30mm from the lower wing leading edge.....and most everyone is saying their TM's weight 9 to 12oz......?...Pico's.....?

I just measured where my level C/G lands.....it's approx. 1.5" or 40mm from the leading edge of the lower wing......now if I hold it by finger tips at the rear edge of the top wing in between the two main wing struts, she's a liitle nose heavy, which I want!

I'm lost......to many conflicting recomendations to sort through....I will not even attempt to fly her without the proper nose heavy C/G..!

Thanks guys.....I'll post a pic after decals and a little panel striping are done.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:24 PM
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15.7oz is very light in my book. Mine both weigh considerably more than that.

As to the CG - it should be the top of the rear cabane struts. Some have recommended putting a pencil under the top wing and pushing it back till it's up against the cabanes and balancing it on that. (The front of the top of the rear cabanes sounds so awkward.) Here's a photo of the region I'm talking about.



Let me know if that's as awkward to understand as I'm afraid it is.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:33 PM
  #24  
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Thanks mclarkson....

I just tried C/G check with a pencil (you explained it quite well).....she stands level stationary, when bounced, tail has most influence....just a bit....guess I should add a little nose weight or go out and get the 7.4v 2200mah I saw at the LHS...that might do the trick.

You mentioned I'm a little lite......with the 2200mah I'll be over 16oz's.....is closer to 19oz's better.....?...........I lost weight going to the brushless motor, almost 2.5oz's.....and a 1300mah 3s only adds another 1.8oz's.....got no room for anything bigger without totally thinning out the battery compartment (not an option). Thus, the longer/thinner 7.4v batteries.

Here's a couple of pics of the finished product (plain Jane):





Maybe I'll add some of the (putty) that came with the kit, to the nose. Very apprehensive about flying her without a little weight up front since it gets a little breezy here.....unless I get out at sunrise......temps here are now 90 by 11:00am.
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:17 PM
  #25  
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First off, lighter is generally better so don't worry about it being 'too light.' It'll just float for ya.

My two weigh 20 ounces and 22.5 ounces.

Dead level with the 'pencil test' should be very nearly perfect for you. I actually prefer mine with the CG a little bit back from there so, for my tastes, dead level is actually a little bit nose heavy. (Your experience may vary.)
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